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Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

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Re: Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

#71

Post by vonmoltke »

mooreds wrote: post #35
pmorici wrote: post #11

This has got to be one of the most honest descriptions of how job hunting actually works ever written and posted on HN. It's a sharp contrast to a lot of the stuff that is posted here that depicts job hunting like some kind of spiritual search for your life's passion.

I think this is a great description of the job hunting process early in your career. Later in your career, if you have kept connections alive, the job hunt should look like this: "Hi , I'm looking for a position doing X at Y, and I noticed you know Sara at Y. Do you mind doing intros? I'd really appreciate it." ... intros/coffee with Sara. ... resume to the hiring manager, perhaps through some automated system, but w…

> Later in your career, if you have kept connections alive, the job hunt should look like this

If you kept connections alive and actually have connections that move on to other companies. 95% of the connections I have made in 14 years are either retired or still at the companies they were at when I met them. How does this help me?

Re: Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

#72

Post by phunehehe0 »

swang wrote: post #26

this is all good info. especially the take homes. when i interviewed this time around for a new job, the most frustrating part were the take homes. lots of companies expect you to do a sample project that only grants you an audience to a technical phone screen. like, what? didn't i just pass your technical test? if i still have to show my technical prowess doesn't that mean you don't trust my resume, or trust that i…

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned. I have been on both sides. Take homes are awesome when used correctly.

They shouldn't be used for a candidate with a relevant opensource profile. In that case, you can already assert that they have the technical skills. You can ask them about their projects to make sure it's their work if you want. Personally I'd go straight to communication skills and cultural fit.

For a candidate without much opensource contributions, take homes help both sides:

- Candidates get the chance to prove that they are smart and fast learners (especially if you want to get into a slightly different area) - Companies don't have to worry about candidates who can't do fizzbuzz - Neither side have to do the horrid live coding (yeah, nobody likes that, even the interviewer)

The awkward thing for me is to deal with candidates who seem to be good at _something else_ (that is not a good approximation of the work at hand). I usually ask them why they want the position. Usually it's just that they "want to get into a slightly different area" and fortunately most agree that a take home is fair.

Re: Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

#73

Post by vonmoltke »

pmiller2 wrote: post #9
noescape wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why is this pleasantry about "luck" and not something else? You don't hear employers say "keep studying" or "we wish you a good effort" or "we hope you build cool stuff". Isn't the employer referring to luck an admission from the employer that interviewing has a lot to do with luck?

Because "keep studying" would just sound condescending.

I personally find "good luck" and "we reject many good candidates" it be even more condescending.

Re: Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

#74

Post by mooreds »

vonmoltke wrote: post #71
mooreds wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a great description of the job hunting process early in your career. Later in your career, if you have kept connections alive, the job hunt should look like this: "Hi , I'm looking for a position doing X at Y, and I noticed you know Sara at Y. Do you mind doing intros? I'd really appreciate it." ... intros/coffee with Sara. ... resume to the hiring manager, perhaps through some automated system, but w…

> Later in your career, if you have kept connections alive, the job hunt should look like this If you kept connections alive and actually have connections that move on to other companies. 95% of the connections I have made in 14 years are either retired or still at the companies they were at when I met them. How does this help me?

Interesting! Not my experience, so hard to comment intelligibly. As if that is going to stop me, this is the internet.

I guess I would still go into your network and see if they have met anyone who has moved on. Adter all, it isn't the direct connection that you are looking for (though that is preferable), but the second layer connection.

Otherwise I think you are either in the position of following the author's advice or trying to expand your network by working with people in other ways (side projects, moonlighting, open source, volunteering). I know how unsavoury that choice is.

Since I can't definitively speak to your situation, let me talk about ways to avoid it.

- work in a consulting shop early in your career.

- seek big companies over small as your first or second job

- prefer job dense locations early in your career

- volunteer your time when you have cycles. Work an event, write some code, etc

I realize these are not all available to everyone, they are just guidelines that will expand your network.

Re: Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

#75

Post by vonmoltke »

Cpoll wrote: post #10
noescape wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why is this pleasantry about "luck" and not something else? You don't hear employers say "keep studying" or "we wish you a good effort" or "we hope you build cool stuff". Isn't the employer referring to luck an admission from the employer that interviewing has a lot to do with luck?

Because "keep studying" can be construed negatively: You're not good enough. Unsolicited advice isn't usually a good idea politically. Saying "luck" implies several things: - You just weren't the right fit. - I don't wish to imply your skills are lacking. - I hope you succeed, even though I wasn't able to help.

> Because "keep studying" can be construed negatively: You're not good enough. Unsolicited advice isn't usually a good idea politically.

They're rejecting you because you weren't good enough (or because they suck at actually identifying talent).

> Saying "luck" implies several things:

None of which are good things about the process, because a process should be designed to drive the percent influence of luck to as close to zero as practical.

> - You just weren't the right fit.

Bullshit non-reason.

> - I don't wish to imply your skills are lacking.

We also don't want to admit that we may not have any idea what we are looking for or how to evaluate it.

> - I hope you succeed, even though I wasn't able to help.

If I don't need improvement but I succeed elsewhere in a similar job, that just means you screwed up.

Re: Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

#76

Post by mooreds »

user5994461 wrote: post #69
lrem wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really depends on your circumstances. I've been doing part-time gigs since I turned 18 and recently finished my PhD. When I searched for my first full-time job I interviewed with a bunch of companies in different industries in different countries. I got an offer from every one of them and it really turned into a search of where I think I would be the happiest.

Sorry to say it but if everyone says yes without further thinking, it means that they know they're screwing you ^^ Lowball salary? No benefit? Bad company desperate to hire? There can be many explanations.

Or, possibly, extremely competitive candidate with a unique skillset.

Based on this limited info, he gp was probably very affordable. Which is fine, I was very affordable when I first came out of school.

Re: Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

#77

Post by vonmoltke »

jacalata wrote: post #47
joatmon-snoo wrote: post #32

My perspective is skewed because I'm a uni student, but although there's really good stuff here, a lot also sticks out to me as the kind of advice I'd be giving to someone who just wants something to pay the bills, not someone who wants to do something they really want to do. The high volume apps and crapshoot stuff - 100% yes. Stuff like template cover letters? Nuh-uh. I have a structure that I stick to - hey, saw y…

No, you can't spot a memorized story. You can possibly spot a poorly memorized story. It's the difference between learning a speech off by heart and knowing the material backwards.

Without probing questions, no. On technical matters and some interpersonal matters, though, you can use a variation of 5 Whys to quickly drill down on certain decisions or details. The only way to pass that is to actually know what you are talking about.

Re: Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

#78

Post by mooreds »

sschueller wrote: post #58
jondubois wrote: post #50

I've been coding since I was 14 (I'm 27 now) and went to uni; I usually never have a problem with technical interviews, but I applied for Facebook just to try out their interview process (because one of my academic-minded software engineering friends told me that he didn't pass the third interview - So I was intrigued). I thought that their questions were mostly good but the interviewer makes you code live in realtim…

Is there no trial period in the US? Every person we hire here (Switzerland) gets interviewed but because it is almost impossible to know if someone is going to work out there is a trial period of three months by law. Usually with a termination time of one week. After the trial you will usually need to give at least three month notice. You can get the most brilliant Coder but if he/she doesn't work with your existing…

A trial period is a great idea only if the switching of jobs is not disruptive to both parties.

When you switch jobs in the USA, you switch health insurance and other benefits. Doing this for 3 months and then finding another job would be tedious.

Also, if it doesn't work out, what does the candidate do? Go hunt for another job with a negative signal on their resume? If I were a job seeker that would seem high risk.

This is the same reason contract to hire positions don't attract everyone. If you are good enough, the company will commit to you without the trial period, which candidates typically want.

Optionality has value, and both parties can't possess it.

Re: Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

#79

Post by saiya-jin »

sschueller wrote: post #58
jondubois wrote: post #50

I've been coding since I was 14 (I'm 27 now) and went to uni; I usually never have a problem with technical interviews, but I applied for Facebook just to try out their interview process (because one of my academic-minded software engineering friends told me that he didn't pass the third interview - So I was intrigued). I thought that their questions were mostly good but the interviewer makes you code live in realtim…

Is there no trial period in the US? Every person we hire here (Switzerland) gets interviewed but because it is almost impossible to know if someone is going to work out there is a trial period of three months by law. Usually with a termination time of one week. After the trial you will usually need to give at least three month notice. You can get the most brilliant Coder but if he/she doesn't work with your existing…

not specific to Suisse, but this can be PITA - actual hiring in bigger organizations take many more months, so hire&fire is a very costly exercise, time and cash wise.

As stated before, it's nicer to the employee on one side, but since everybody wants to hire proper guy to avoid firing&rehiring hassle due to these protections, interviews can end up on the ridiculous side.

you gain something, you lose something else.

Re: Don’t Get Attached, It’s Just Luck. My Interviewing Advice and Tips

#80

Post by vonmoltke »

phunehehe0 wrote: post #72
swang wrote: post #26

this is all good info. especially the take homes. when i interviewed this time around for a new job, the most frustrating part were the take homes. lots of companies expect you to do a sample project that only grants you an audience to a technical phone screen. like, what? didn't i just pass your technical test? if i still have to show my technical prowess doesn't that mean you don't trust my resume, or trust that i…

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned. I have been on both sides. Take homes are awesome when used correctly. They shouldn't be used for a candidate with a relevant opensource profile. In that case, you can already assert that they have the technical skills. You can ask them about their projects to make sure it's their work if you want. Personally I'd go straight to communication skills and cultural fit. For a can…

> The awkward thing for me is to deal with candidates who seem to be good at _something else_ (that is not a good approximation of the work at hand). I usually ask them why they want the position. Usually it's just that they "want to get into a slightly different area" and fortunately most agree that a take home is fair.

Trying to get companies to even talk to me about positions that are not like whatever I am currently doing is like pulling teeth. I used to work in real-time embedded systems, signal processing specifically. I shifted to NLP and ML for reasons, but one of them was not "I'm tired of/can't hack embedded and want to try something else". I would love for companies to give me take-homes to prove I can still do embedded. Instead they just ignore me.

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