Live data from Hacker News

Academia, Love Me Back

vivatiffany.wordpress.com

71–80 of 94 posts

Re: Academia, Love Me Back

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you're being down voted means you're absolutely correct about two things: that 1) this is a very emotionally charged story and emotionally charged pieces are hard to discuss civilly, and 2) we as commenter cannot truly judge the situation, especially with only one side speaking out. The rest I don't know about - it seems definitely possible that the professor could be a racist, I don't know why you woul…

> However there is nothing in the article that indicates that the professor was specifically targeting her for her race, other than 'I deal with racism every day'. Without knowing more about the situation it's hard to say more. Despite this, there's quite a few comments in this thread already that seem emotionally loaded. It seemed pretty clear that the author is drawing an inference that "not your language" means "y…

"It seemed pretty clear that the author is drawing an inference that "not your language" means "you don't speak English well enough to use this word or write like this,""

It's not clear. Your own bias makes you think that's clear. The alternative is that the instructor believes it's plagiarism. This means they thinks they've seen what's in front of them before exactly as worded in uncommon scenario or they sees an odd discrepancy between that paper and prior work of hers. Several people have already showed up in the comments pointing this out with one person catching real cheaters using this method. That validates it's a hypothesis that must be ruled out as we determine what caused the decision.

Unfortunately, we don't have enough data to do that. All we can be sure of was their evidence appears weak, how they handled it should get them reprimanded/fired, and we only heard one side of the story by an individual with extreme bias on this sort of thing which pervades the whole article. So, I'd like to hear what the professor or other people there said about that event, the professor, and her. Past that, I have to address it conditionally like "If professor did this, then it might have been reasons X or Y with terrible corrective action taken. Source leans toward X based on personal experiences but no data to support either."

Note: There's also other forms of discrimination based on language besides race in terms of what you expect of different kinds of skill levels, institutions, local dialects, etc. I've had many experiences with discrimination based on how I write or speak from white and black people of both genders with women doing it much more to me than men. In the white cases, race usually had no element in it since I'm white but they were still judgmental pricks with their own biases with impact on my future. It's why I'm pro-merit and anti-superficial.

Edit: Had to change some pronouns because my own bias made me assume something. Bias is that sneaky!

Re: Academia, Love Me Back

#72

I've had professors do this to me. I don't understand what's wrong with this. This is a common thing I even do when grading programming assignments. When I notice a stylistic choice that is outside of the norm for the students I can usually tell exactly who the work came from. Every semester I catch at least one group of cheaters (This semester I caught two!) and they admit to it after I confront them with it. "Hence…

You can find out with a less accusatory attitude, as well, if there has never been questionable behavior before. "Tell me about your process. Can you show me any notes or drafts? Discuss this paragraph with me. Without looking at the paper, can you explain what you're trying to say with this argument?"

Whether they wrote it themselves comes out pretty quickly, even if they won't admit to cheating. If a student can't explain his or her work, then you have a basis for giving a lower grade or pressing on the cheating accusation.

Re: Academia, Love Me Back

#73
post #3

We (as outsider observers) lack the evidence to judge this story objectively. It sucks to be unfairly accused of plagiarism (it happened to me once in high school). However, we don't know why the professor came to the conclusion that she plagiarised. Maybe they jumped to conclusions on limited evidence, or maybe this paper was written with vocabulary and sentence structure which was inconsistent with the student's ea…

You should see the comment section of that web site. I read them all since I like watching people's behavior in these things. Her audience is mostly people 100% agreeing with her interpretation of things with a clear message: "any counterpoints are people clueless about racism esp if it's white people and all whites might as well shut up anyway since it's inconceivable for them to have ever felt something similar regardless of circumstances." [1] There's recurring patterns in the responses vs what I see in similar articles' comments that effectively cause censorship where there's little argument as the comments have total dismissal built in to them. In this case, unless I missed on, there was no argument after the first counterpoint posted by each commenter. So censorship worked to point one skin color and one gender were pushed out of being heard commenting on an article that's about people of non-dominant, skin colors and/or genders not being heard with any credibility.

As disgusting and racist as the kinds of haters they claim to oppose. About the only one that seemed especially fair among the supporters of her claims was one claiming the post itself might be highly-biased due to it being a catharsis of sorts that may lead to a constructive response to her situation she hasn't elaborated on. I could easily see that possibility being it's her personal blog & she left identifying information off. Past that, I knew I shouldn't comment as specific people there would disqualify it on color/gender, imply I couldn't conceive similar things, imply the stated bias was true since it was a minority that claimed to experience it, and drag me into a bunch of tangents unrelated to data original source provided. That's what they did to the others. Hence, my suspicion it would happen to me.

[1] I review this from perspective of a white male who grew up in mostly black areas where hating on whites was norm and redneck areas that weren't big on intellectual or "soft" types. I experienced subtle and overt racism + discrimination constantly that hurt my education, cost me jobs, got me targeted by authority figures more, got me served last at lunch lines, question whether I was the problem, etc. So, I have to work extra hard maintaining balance and rational approach to reviewing stuff when the comments basically act like I never experienced that or play it off as existential vs circumstantial or some other nonsense. Yes, we do experience it with those of us in minority areas experiencing it at the level of blacks except there's more beatdowns of us and murder in general. That they keep pretending we don't despite our claims and journal introspection being almost identical to theirs is itself a form of racism. I always point that out in case someone assumes I'm a white, suburban guy from middle class home in a white area going to college on a football scholarship or something.

Re: Academia, Love Me Back

#74
post #60
post #51

First rule: Institutions can never love you back. http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/5/9/2281 Simone's Maxims are possibly the best piece of career advice anyone ever gave me. At least she's learning this early in the game. She's clever and tough and will either go far or be smart enough to make much more money at a real job. Her prof? Not so much.

That's a great link, thank you!

Everyone in academia should internalize it

Re: Academia, Love Me Back

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However there is nothing in the article that indicates that the professor was specifically targeting her for her race, other than 'I deal with racism every day'. Without knowing more about the situation it's hard to say more. Despite this, there's quite a few comments in this thread already that seem emotionally loaded. It seemed pretty clear that the author is drawing an inference that "not your language" means "y…

"It seemed pretty clear that the author is drawing an inference that "not your language" means "you don't speak English well enough to use this word or write like this,"" It's not clear. Your own bias makes you think that's clear. The alternative is that the instructor believes it's plagiarism. This means they thinks they've seen what's in front of them before exactly as worded in uncommon scenario or they sees an od…

You're arguing past him.

The author believes that the professor is racist, and writes as if it is true.

That's all that the above poster really said. It's not an indiciation that anyone believes that this is true.

Re: Academia, Love Me Back

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It seemed pretty clear that the author is drawing an inference that "not your language" means "you don't speak English well enough to use this word or write like this,"" It's not clear. Your own bias makes you think that's clear. The alternative is that the instructor believes it's plagiarism. This means they thinks they've seen what's in front of them before exactly as worded in uncommon scenario or they sees an od…

You're arguing past him. The author believes that the professor is racist, and writes as if it is true. That's all that the above poster really said. It's not an indiciation that anyone believes that this is true.

I hate retractions but you're probably right. I was reading so many comments that I missed one set of words in that one: "was cheating." Changes meaning of whole comment. So, my elaboration of the points makes sense but totally wrong comment to drop them. Thanks for counter as I sometimes make these mistakes doing too much at once. :)

Re: Academia, Love Me Back

#77
post #46

I've had professors do this to me. I don't understand what's wrong with this. This is a common thing I even do when grading programming assignments. When I notice a stylistic choice that is outside of the norm for the students I can usually tell exactly who the work came from. Every semester I catch at least one group of cheaters (This semester I caught two!) and they admit to it after I confront them with it. "Hence…

> Just because something is possible/correct in a language and that the person wiring the piece has every bit of ability to use the complex structure at had it doesn't mean they would normally do so. Sure it's not accurate, and sure you may not be right with every call (hasn't happened to me yet but other TAs have called people out and have turned out to be wrong), but it's something that I'd call a "clue" that somet…

I've got pretty bad dislexia as noted by my professors, colleges, and highschool teachers. It's extremely hard for me to write something without spelling errors. So in fact yes it's entirely plausible to use that to identify my speech.

Re: Academia, Love Me Back

#78
post #37

Interestingly this happened to me and to my younger brother. There was no racial component to it although we do belong to a religious minority, come from low-income backgrounds and were homeschooled. I personally felt some prejudice at various times on account of these characteristics. In my case I was a 16 year old high school dropout taking a history class at a Junior College. My prof had a lengthy conversation bas…

>Being judged incapable of producing your own work BURNS.

Or you could take it as that you are so much better than your class mates that your work stands out as being exceptional. This is a huge complement.

I used to be a professor and I can tell you plagiarism is rampant. When a student hands in a work that is far above their peers you are suspicious. I would never accuse a student of cheating without evidence, but I have asked many about their work to ascertain if they had actually produced the work themselves. In every case where I was suspicious (around 20), the person did not have the slightest clue about what they had supposedly written. Professors are cynical for a reason.

Re: Academia, Love Me Back

#79
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just because something is possible/correct in a language and that the person wiring the piece has every bit of ability to use the complex structure at had it doesn't mean they would normally do so. Sure it's not accurate, and sure you may not be right with every call (hasn't happened to me yet but other TAs have called people out and have turned out to be wrong), but it's something that I'd call a "clue" that somet…

I've got pretty bad dislexia as noted by my professors, colleges, and highschool teachers. It's extremely hard for me to write something without spelling errors. So in fact yes it's entirely plausible to use that to identify my speech.

So if you make an effort to correct mistakes due to your dyslexia it actually means you plagiarized your work?

Re: Academia, Love Me Back

#80
Maybe he just couldn't get over someone using an exclamation point in a paper.

From Strunk & White: "Exclamations. Do not attempt to emphasize simple statements by using a mark of exclamation.

The exclamation mark is to be reserved for use after true exclamations or commands."

Post reply on HN