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Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

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Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#71

Post by stse »

andreyf wrote: post #30
pg wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes; I lost a lot of respect for Wikileaks after that. It seemed as if they'd branched out into the propaganda business. I wonder what made them change direction after so long.

This was brought up on The Colbert Report's interview of Julian Assange [1]. His response was that they where provided the video under the condition that they'd try to maximize its political impact to the best of their ability. I don't think their strategy was the best way to fullfil that goal (precisely because of the blatant political slant), but that's their stated motivation. 1. http://www.colbertnation.com/the-c…

The thing is that it worked. I never seen any Wikileaks story get so much attention in the news or "virally" on the Internet. Here in Sweden it was a top story on all the major newspapers websites and on the evening news, but put into context. The second part with the hellfire missile, where they didn't provide much commentary, in comparison got a lot less attention. More people than usual do seem to have watched the full material and read the related reports etc. to get the full story.

I never really got upset about Wikileaks providing commentary, because I never had the illusion that they were going to be impartial. Don't be lazy, apply some critical thinking, listen to different sources. Leaks are in their nature untrustworthy. Even intelligence agencies with all their highly educated analysts get things wrong.

Finally if you stop supporting Wikileaks because you don't like that they provide commentary, editorialize, make propaganda or whatever your view are of it. I don't really think you get what their doing or what's at stake.

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#72

Post by jey »

stse wrote: post #71
andreyf wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was brought up on The Colbert Report's interview of Julian Assange [1]. His response was that they where provided the video under the condition that they'd try to maximize its political impact to the best of their ability. I don't think their strategy was the best way to fullfil that goal (precisely because of the blatant political slant), but that's their stated motivation. 1. http://www.colbertnation.com/the-c…

The thing is that it worked. I never seen any Wikileaks story get so much attention in the news or "virally" on the Internet. Here in Sweden it was a top story on all the major newspapers websites and on the evening news, but put into context. The second part with the hellfire missile, where they didn't provide much commentary, in comparison got a lot less attention. More people than usual do seem to have watched the…

It's unfortunate/scary that propagandizing is more effective than the "truth".

I guess the truly unfortunate part is that people don't think critically by default. Encouraging critical thought seems like a far better/realistic goal than expecting content producers to act in a way that maximizes total "societal good", but that's [depressingly] still a completely far-fetched idea.

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#73

Post by david927 »

Weapons of Mass Destruction were never found. That was the causus belli. That was the reason for the invasion, and they don't exist.

Someone, anyone, tell me why the U.S. is still there and under what legal basis. Anyone. I dare you.

The problem is that you can't. And so now we're talking about kids with glass in their eyes and bullets in their bodies, and soldiers with psychological scars that won't heal. Yet not a single person can give a valid, legal reason for it all. Yet no one will take two minutes to email their representative and say, "Stop it."

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#74

Post by InclinedPlane »

johnyzee wrote: post #70
gruseom wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From various profiles of Assange scattered around the web, it seems clear that he intended Wikileaks to be a propaganda (he uses the word "activist") organization from the beginning. I suppose that implies they were simply biding their time waiting for a leak that would make a big enough propaganda splash (he uses the phrase "maximum political impact") before showing their hand. It seems we all just projected the rol…

I don't get the difference? The important thing is that this kind of video is made publically available. Who cares what commentary the publisher chooses to make alongside of it and how is that different from what you get from any of the mainstream news sources (tv, newspapers), except that those actually feign neutrality (contrary to wikileaks).

Propaganda vs. propaganda is a recipe for disaster, that's not the sort of future of journalism that anyone should want. Reporting news from a given perspective or from a certain bias is fine, indeed normal, provided that you make people aware of it. Presenting propaganda as straight, unbiased news should be discouraged everywhere it is evident, history has proven that slope to be far too slippery. If wikileaks wishes to transform itself into some sort of rumor mill or propaganda site like druge report then it's free to do so provided that they make it abundantly clear that's what they're doing.

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#75

Post by CamperBob »

anthonyb wrote: post #66
CamperBob wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a good point, and I would add that factory farming is very far from natural. It's "natural" for a certain, non-negligible percentage of humanity to starve to death, or to suffer from malnutrition. Factory farming is a very important reason why fewer people starve to death every year. Screw your idea of what's "natural."

Factory farming generally means pigs, cows and chickens crammed into small spaces. I think you're confusing that with Industrial Agriculture, aka. "The Green Revolution". It's quite possible to have non-factory farming and not starve to death.

I think the issues with inhumane animal treatment and overcrowding are going to solve themselves eventually. Nobody wants agribusinesses out of the animal-husbandry business more than the agribusinesses do. Feeding, confining, and slaughtering animals is a messy and expensive annoyance.

Before long, I think we'll see engineered meat being grown on scaffolds in vats, without no need for anyone to deal with animal maintenance at all. As I understand it, the biotech advances needed to make this happen are incremental, not revolutionary.

This will obviously be considered revolting at first, but it won't be hard to change peoples' minds. There simply aren't any downsides -- everybody from ordinary consumers to PETA nutcases to cigar-chomping Con-Agra executives will get what they want.

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#76

Post by sorbits »

tome wrote: post #68
GHFigs wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they where provided the video under the condition that they'd try to maximize its political impact to the best of their ability With this policy in mind, is it any wonder that Army counterintelligence once wondered: "Will the Wikileaks.org Web site be used by FISS, foreign military services, or foreign terrorist groups to spread propaganda, misinformation, or disinformation or to conduct perception or influence opera…

This is appalling. It sounds like Wikileaks has been "positively blackmailed"[1] into accepting the video. "We'll give you this tasty goodie to publish on your site, but you have to use it to further our political agenda". Sounds like they couldn't resist the temptation. This is not what we want from a whistleblower protection site. [1] is there an official word for that?

Bribed would probably be the closest “official” word.

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#77

Post by jacquesm »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #39
pg wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes; I lost a lot of respect for Wikileaks after that. It seemed as if they'd branched out into the propaganda business. I wonder what made them change direction after so long.

>Now, as far as rules of engagement, [Iraqis] are not supposed to pick up the wounded. But they could have been easily deterred from doing what they were doing by just firing simply a few warning shots in the direction. Instead, the Apaches decided to completely obliterate everybody in the van. It is by no means irresponsible to call what happened "collateral murder".

> Now, as far as rules of engagement, [Iraqis] are not supposed to pick up the wounded.

It's what any right thinking person would do, care for the wounded, the 'rules of engagement' were probably not set up by the Iraqis if they are not allowed to care for their wounded.

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#78

Post by jacquesm »

joelhaus wrote: post #54
pquerna wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

agree, I support their release of the video, but as the Solider discusses, exposing the average human to the terribleness of War is all you need to do, not overblow with commentary.

They surely had the right to release the video; however, the manner in which they did it will lead many to question the credibility Wikileaks once enjoyed. Until watching The Pacific mini-series (currently on HBO), I did not fully appreciate the saying "war is hell". Having never experienced war, I can't fully vouch for the show's authenticity, but if it's even close, you've gotta feel for any human being put in thes…

The people that are most gung-ho about war are usually the ones that have not experienced it or any fall out from one in any way.

Figure the US reaction on 9/11, 3500 civilians killed (unjustly, no mistake) vs the US reaction on tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians killed. It's just too far away from home, and this video did one service, it rammed home just how ugly that war really is.

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#79

Post by jacquesm »

stse wrote: post #65
TallGuyShort wrote: post #2

If it was possible to give a standing ovation to someone via Hacker News, I would. This is perhaps the most sincere, mature, well-thought out commentary I've ever read on anything to do with the Iraq war. Spoken like a true soldier. edit: to clarify what I mean, I grew up shortly after there was a civil war in my country - and as such I really appreciate soldiers who, having fought on soil that was not their own, are…

I think it came across quite clearly in the video that the guys on the ground were a lot more attached to the situation. You could here it in their voices. An important part of this story that sadly won't get much attention is how badly the soldiers are treated. The sergeant could potentially have saved this guy a lot of trouble by letting him see a "mental health person".

Key point is that it wasn't the guys on the ground but some chopper jockey that caused the bigger part of the carnage.

Re: Soldier in Wikileaks video of 2007 Apache attack reveals what happened that day

#80

Post by jacquesm »

sunchild wrote: post #47

"There’s no easy way to kill somebody. You don’t just take somebody’s life and then go on about your business for the rest of the day. That stays with you. And cracking jokes is a way of pushing that stuff down. That’s why so many soldiers come back home and they’re no longer in the situations where they have other things to think about or other people to joke about what happened … and they explode." I think a lot of…

That's somewhat contrary to the voice over from the guy flying the chopper.
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