Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog • Hacker News Board

Re: Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog

#71

Post by eridius » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 6:05 PM UTC

spacehunt wrote: post #65

Hydraulix989 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, then you release your recorded call AFTER they defect (I'm not saying he shouldn't have covered his ass by recording the call, that's the smart thing I would've also done). Imagine how bad that would look for Apple. If I had to guess, Phil & co. wouldn't want to risk that nuclear scenario (and they are definitely smart enough to know better).

> Okay, then you release your recorded call AFTER they defect Isn't this essentially what happened (at least according to Kapeli)? He wrote the blog post, sent Apple a draft, then Apple went to the press.

Not at all. Apple released a PR statement about what led up to the termination. And nothing they said in there was incorrect, and nothing they said in there would have contradicted his blog post. The PR statement explained that the fraud was detected across 2 linked accounts and from the way it was written it was obvious that Apple was treating both accounts as being a single developer. The blog post would have explained that his account was linked to another one with fraud, and that he's working with Apple to unlink it. Everybody who reads both posts would understand that his account didn't have any fraud on it directly, but was linked to an account with fraud.

Re: Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog

#72

Post by eridius » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 6:07 PM UTC

gshulegaard wrote: post #40

edko wrote: post #22

This whole thing has taught me a lesson. I initially sided with the weaker side because I own a copy of Dash, and it is great software, and because one tends to side with the underdog. After listening to the recording of the conversation, my feeling is that Apple is handling this in a very fair and professional way, and that I was too quick to take sides. I think it is not unreasonable to assume that: same credit car…

I generally agree with you but wanted to point out that: > same credit card + same hardware = same developer is fine as a pseudo-identifier for fraud detection...but I don't think is actually an identifier. It's kind of like someone knowing my social security number and birthday but not actually being me. IMO, Apple should have immediately reinstated the account once contacted about a potential edge case rather than…

Why should Apple have immediately reinstated the account? Remember, in all of this, we still have no proof that he doesn't actually control the second account. All we have is his claim that this account belongs to a relative and that he doesn't control it (and even if that's completely true, I think he still bears some responsibility for it since he set up the account and provided the hardware). The fact that Apple was willing to believe him and offer him a way to unlink his account was a gesture of good faith by Apple, nothing more.

Re: Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog

#73

Post by forgottenpass » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 6:07 PM UTC

eridius wrote: post #66

forgottenpass wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I--or any normal person--was in the same situation If you define "normal" as "milquetoast and with an Americentric perspective," then maybe. Americans are much more submissive when bureaucratic process presents a roadblock. Especially a roadblock that seems on the face more reasonable with an American view of sharing bank accounts and old hardware. Americans' desire for justice and fairness are paraded around. But…

Saying "I understand why you linked these accounts and that my relative committed fraud" is not the same thing as being submissive and rolling over, and your portrayal of Americans is rather offensive.

It's an unreasonable level of deference to a business process that we now understand can err. And that even if it didn't err in this case, we now know it to be designed to err. It unconditionally resolves an ambiguity into the direction that makes their other work easier, regardless of if the data is less correct. And that even if their contracts of adhesion makes the err legally (or at least bureaucratically) robust, doesn't make it just.

your portrayal of Americans is rather offensive.

You have a good point. Voicing my disappointment in my fellow countrymen might go over better at HN I were doing something minor, like accusing ~40% of them of racism for not sharing the opinion that the Democrats' policy positions are the lesser of two evils.

Re: Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog

#74

Post by deeth_starr » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 6:08 PM UTC

cocktailpeanuts wrote: post #32

I was rooting for him really, because I myself am also at times very frustrated with how Apple treats developers. But I've lost trust in this guy after reading his blog posts and especially the phone call he published. The only reason I can think of why the phone call took over 7 minutes is because he wanted to record it and publish it. Really. If you summarize the phone call. It's basically Apple asking him to publi…

He said "3-4 years ago" he used his credit card to start the account for a relative. Do we know if he continued to pay for the account? For me it all hinges on this. If it's the same credit card, even if what he says is true, he should own it and admit he f'ed up. If it changed to a different cc, then it's Apple that f'ed up.

And either way, Apple is lame if it takes getting @pschiller involved to try to resolve this. I dig Apple, but they are broken in so many ways.

Edit: typo

Re: Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog

#75

Post by eridius » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 6:09 PM UTC

Arnt wrote: post #37

I14n is fun — to watch for the audience. Apple behaves as if everyone has a credit card and the mapping from credit card to (legal) person is unique. That isn't so in Romania and Apple's heuristics go boom. The same assumption shows up again a little later in the imbroglio: Apple asked him to admit some sort of wrongdoing, however gently, because credit card maps to person to the person they spoke to carries some res…

It was more than just the credit card. It was test hardware in general, some of the stuff in the phone call suggested that maybe both accounts still share financial details, and there's probably other factors too that Apple doesn't advertise because they don't want to tell fraudsters how to avoid detection (e.g. perhaps both accounts were set up from the same IP address).

Re: Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog

#76

Post by spacehunt » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 6:09 PM UTC

eridius wrote: post #71

spacehunt wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Okay, then you release your recorded call AFTER they defect Isn't this essentially what happened (at least according to Kapeli)? He wrote the blog post, sent Apple a draft, then Apple went to the press.

Not at all. Apple released a PR statement about what led up to the termination. And nothing they said in there was incorrect, and nothing they said in there would have contradicted his blog post. The PR statement explained that the fraud was detected across 2 linked accounts and from the way it was written it was obvious that Apple was treating both accounts as being a single developer. The blog post would have expla…

I mostly agree with you, but clearly this is not how Kapeli felt for some reason (eg. perhaps because English is not his first language):

> Tonight Apple decided to accuse me of manipulating the App Store in public via a spokesperson.

Re: Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog

#77

Post by eridius » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 6:12 PM UTC

Arnt wrote: post #59

st3v3r wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to put your credit card in, then you are responsible for the account. If fraud happens on one account you are responsible for, it's not a stretch to believe that fraud could happen on other accounts you are responsible for.

You're equating "paying for" and "responsible for".

Which is reasonable. If you pay for something, you generally are at least slightly responsible for it. Just because you don't want to be responsible for it doesn't mean you aren't.

For example, if I buy a car, hand the keys to a friend, and they go out and commit a crime with the car, I'm going to bet that I'm legally culpable in some fashion.

Re: Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog

#78

Post by eridius » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 6:13 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #34

0xmohit wrote: post #28

This is hilarious: My preferred solution would be for a fellow developer to get it back on the App Store, as a free app. Especially because: Open sourcing doesn’t look like a good solution at this time, as most of my users are not iOS developers and are not familiar with compiling an app for their devices. I may be missing something but the author cannot open source the app, but expects a fellow developer to get it o…

It would be tough to take the existing app and reupload it, but this guy could certainly provide another developer with a built binary which they would then submit. You'd have to be mad to actually do that, though. We see quite clearly how Apple can react when they think they've been wronged, and who knows what that binary actually contains. Seems like the best approach would be to open source it and convince somebod…

The other developer could be given the source. He doesn't need to open source the app in order to give one other developer access to the source.

Re: Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog

#79

Post by eridius » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 6:19 PM UTC

Crosseye_Jack wrote: post #29

funkydata wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is not blackmailing from Apple. They are offering him a chance to wipe his slate clean if he publicly (since he was the one to go public) acknowledges that what Apple did was justified (and it was). He has to now decide what's more important: his pride or his revenue ( https://web.archive.org/web/20150103225308/http://blog.kapel... ), it's that simple.

> Others have said that it's Apple Blackmailing him "Post a blog post if you want your account back" and I can see their logic. I'm not saying Apple did blackmail him, just stating what others on this site have said do me. Personally listening to the call I would of made the blog post, not because I thought Apple were blackmailing me but because I can see Apple's Point of View in this matter and that it had stirred t…

> But it had been pointed out to me that the blog post being a condition of having the account reinstated (and Apple ideally wanting to look over a draft of that post first) could be taken as Apple blackmailing him and its hard to argue against that point.

No it's not. Nothing about this even comes close to blackmail. Blackmail is demanding payment under threat of doing something bad. This is the complete opposite. This is Apple offering the developer an opportunity that Apple doesn't need to offer, in return for a very simple blog post basically explaining that Apple's offer does not mean Apple's original account termination was in error. This is no more blackmail than selling you an item for $10 is blackmail.

Re: Dear Dash Users – A message to all Dash users from the Kapeli Blog

#80

Post by cocktailpeanuts » Tue, Oct 11, 2016, 6:22 PM UTC

forgottenpass wrote: post #64

cocktailpeanuts wrote: post #32

I was rooting for him really, because I myself am also at times very frustrated with how Apple treats developers. But I've lost trust in this guy after reading his blog posts and especially the phone call he published. The only reason I can think of why the phone call took over 7 minutes is because he wanted to record it and publish it. Really. If you summarize the phone call. It's basically Apple asking him to publi…

If I--or any normal person--was in the same situation If you define "normal" as "milquetoast and with an Americentric perspective," then maybe. Americans are much more submissive when bureaucratic process presents a roadblock. Especially a roadblock that seems on the face more reasonable with an American view of sharing bank accounts and old hardware. Americans' desire for justice and fairness are paraded around. But…

Unless you've lived for meaningful amount of time in various cultures throughout your life, this type of stereotype ("Americans are such and such") tells more about yourself than what really is true.

I say this because I have lived in multiple countries/cultures and have seen many people who say the same thing. Regardless of which country you live in, there are people who talk about how some bad human trait is specific to only their culture. If people from all other countries say the same thing, it probably means it's not unique to only your people.

Also, this is not an American thing. This is called "courtesy".