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Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

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Re: Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

#71

Post by mikeash »

TAForObvReasons wrote: post #52
vinay427 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the original rationale behind requiring cars to be sold through dealers was to regulate the market and create competition among different dealers. Without that requirement, manufacturers could easily undercut dealers due to lower overhead. I'm not really sure what the point of car dealers is, but they have somehow found a way to prove themselves "necessary" to some lawmakers in…

> I'm not really sure what the point of car dealers is From a DOJ analysis: > Auto production is a capital-intensive business and a franchise system allowed manufacturers to concentrate their resources upstream while accessing capital through franchise fees from independent entrepreneurs at the retail level. Given capital availability and resources at the time, it made sense for the auto makers to franchise. https://…

If that were true, then they wouldn't need laws forbidding manufacturers from selling directly.

Dealers love to tell us how useful they are, but then they turn around and lobby for their privileged position to be enshrined in law and enforced by the government. Does not compute.

Re: Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

#72

Post by drcross »

dorito_chimp wrote: post #67
mdorazio wrote: post #61

As someone who invested in and got burned by A123 Systems a few years ago, I'll believe these guys are a legitimate company to watch when their battery packs are actually in a large number of cars for a few years without defects. Making LiOn batteries reliable enough for vehicles is harder than most people think, especially when you need extensive QA at scale.

I'm sure you know how much harder it is than a bunch of electrical and mechanical engineers who've been working on it for years. No doubt you're qualified to make such a statement because your expertise and experience in electrical systems and manufacturing trumps theirs. Probably you didn't read the whole article but their batteries have already been in at least one production vehicle for a couple years now (the por…

I don't need to be a film maker to critique a film. OP makes no claims of his/her superior engineering skills, only provides typical concerns that people have.

Re: Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

#73

Post by mikeash »

daveguy wrote: post #56
Reason077 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every recent Tesla has a built-in LTE connection. (I think some of the earlier models were 3G only) You don't need to buy your own SIM - it comes with its own international roaming SIM, with free data for 8 years.

What happens in 8 years? Do you pay Tesla for a subscription?

Minor correction, it's free for 4 years.

As for what happens, nobody knows, because nobody's run out the four years yet. When they announced the four free years, they also said that the clock started for existing customers on January 1, 2014, so nobody will hit the end for another year and some.

I'd guess that it'll end up being a paid subscription after that, but nobody really knows yet. I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla doesn't know yet. I wouldn't be too surprised if they just make it free for life, since it's pretty cheap to provide and so important to the car, but that might just be wishful thinking on my part.

Re: Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

#74

Post by mikeash »

Brakenshire wrote: post #60
nradov wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, for the latest i3 BMW only claims a range of 114 miles. https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/article/detail/T0259560EN...

I was just reading a review which said 200 under ideal conditions, interesting that BMW claim so much less. Does anyone know is there a shared standard for these claims, used by Tesla and the other companies? When Tesla says 200 miles for the model 3, is that 200 miles with a.c. and hills, or is a theoretical maximum?

There are two major shared standards, the American EPA testing cycle and the European NEDC testing cycle. Both are based on essentially taking a car out and driving it in a certain way until the battery is dead, and seeing how far it got.

The EPA range is fairly realistic in my experience, at least with a Tesla. Hills and climate control (AC not so much, but heating is huge) will affect it, but I get fairly close to the official numbers much of the time.

The NEDC test is much more gentle and provides wildly unrealistic numbers. You won't achieve NEDC numbers unless you're doing something like a steady 55MPH on level ground with no climate control.

You can see this in action by going to Tesla's design page and switching the country between the US and the UK. For the US, the Model S 60 is rated at 218 miles and the P100D is 315 miles. In the UK, those numbers are 253 and 381.

BMW says 300km, or 186 miles, for the larger i3 battery under the NEDC:

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicles/i/i3/2016/showroom/ran...

But the EPA range is more like 125 miles.

Tesla's stated Model 3 range of 215 miles is the EPA rating, and so should be fairly realistic in mild conditions, less so in the winter or with a heavy foot. The BMW number to compare to would be 125 miles.

Re: Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

#75

Post by mikeash »

dorito_chimp wrote: post #70
rebootthesystem wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The i3 and i8 are terrible cars as far as I am concerned. Range sucks. And, frankly, if I have to go to a gas station might as well get rid of the electric components and make a nice car. I like the physical design of the i8. I spent a hour looking at one. Ultimately, the idea of having to endure both visiting a gas station and plugging in just turned me off. I'd consider it as a pure electric with decent range or ga…

That's a very odd statement to make. Most people like the reassurance/range-security of being able to visit a gas station in addition to having an electrical engine. That's supposed to be a selling point of the car over Tesla even though it's electrical range sucks and Tesla's extensive supercharger network all but removes range anxiety.

I thought the selling point of the i8 over the Tesla is that the i8 is a proper sports car with BMW handling, and for the i3 the selling point is that it's way cheaper.

Re: Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

#76

Post by mikeash »

zyx321 wrote: post #13
dabeeeenster wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree (I'm also European). When Porsche unveiled the Mission E, they made spec comparisons to the Tesla Model S. But the Mission E is a concept, slated for 2020! VW/Audi, Porsche, BMW and Mercedes need to take a long hard look at themselves. The market is changing way faster than they expected IMO. Just sell a bloody 250 mile range car I can buy for £25k. That's it. It's not hard. Do it, now. Not in 3 year…

>It's not hard. If it's so easy why don't you do it? Let me guess, you've never designed, built, or shipped any physical product. You're like a first-year art student 'designing' the next iPhone in a 3D rendering program (Half as thick, with twice the battery life! Indestructible edge-to-edge screen!)

"Hard" is relative. GM is doing it right now, Tesla is doing it next year, so there's no real excuse for other car makers other than them simply not wanting to.

Sure, I couldn't do it. But the difficulty has an upper bound based on a simple existence proof.

Re: Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

#77

Post by TAForObvReasons »

whamlastxmas wrote: post #65
TAForObvReasons wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not really sure what the point of car dealers is From a DOJ analysis: > Auto production is a capital-intensive business and a franchise system allowed manufacturers to concentrate their resources upstream while accessing capital through franchise fees from independent entrepreneurs at the retail level. Given capital availability and resources at the time, it made sense for the auto makers to franchise. https://…

Not sure why you're downvoted. This is the first rational explanation for this I've ever seen - thanks. Doesn't really justify it still existing today, but makes me hate the system a little less.

I'm not surprised, anything that doesn't toe the Musk/Tesla line is usually met with downvotes here (already -3).

Re: Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

#78

Post by [deleted] »

Brakenshire wrote: post #60
nradov wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, for the latest i3 BMW only claims a range of 114 miles. https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/article/detail/T0259560EN...

I was just reading a review which said 200 under ideal conditions, interesting that BMW claim so much less. Does anyone know is there a shared standard for these claims, used by Tesla and the other companies? When Tesla says 200 miles for the model 3, is that 200 miles with a.c. and hills, or is a theoretical maximum?

[deleted]

Re: Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

#79

Post by Brakenshire »

mikeash wrote: post #74
Brakenshire wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just reading a review which said 200 under ideal conditions, interesting that BMW claim so much less. Does anyone know is there a shared standard for these claims, used by Tesla and the other companies? When Tesla says 200 miles for the model 3, is that 200 miles with a.c. and hills, or is a theoretical maximum?

There are two major shared standards, the American EPA testing cycle and the European NEDC testing cycle. Both are based on essentially taking a car out and driving it in a certain way until the battery is dead, and seeing how far it got. The EPA range is fairly realistic in my experience, at least with a Tesla. Hills and climate control (AC not so much, but heating is huge) will affect it, but I get fairly close to…

Very interesting, exactly the answer I was hoping for. Glad to be corrected.

Re: Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

#80

Post by mikeash »

Brakenshire wrote: post #79
mikeash wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two major shared standards, the American EPA testing cycle and the European NEDC testing cycle. Both are based on essentially taking a car out and driving it in a certain way until the battery is dead, and seeing how far it got. The EPA range is fairly realistic in my experience, at least with a Tesla. Hills and climate control (AC not so much, but heating is huge) will affect it, but I get fairly close to…

Very interesting, exactly the answer I was hoping for. Glad to be corrected.

Glad to help. The existence of both EPA and NEDC numbers is really confusing, especially since most range numbers you see don't specify which one they're using. Once you know what's going on with that, it all makes a lot more sense.
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