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Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

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Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#71

Post by freehunter »

Sneakos wrote: post #17
omginternets wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>don't make an article about how the opposing stance is only held by the weak minded. What if you really think that's the case? Screw it, I'll say it. I think anyone who condemns Snowden is intellectually lazy or has vested interests in NSA surveillance. I have yet to see a single cogent rebuttal of Snowden's moral case.

You could waste time insulting them, or you could provide a case as to why you are right. What purpose does it serve to call them lazy?

There are some things it's not worth arguing because the facts have already been well presented and at this point anyone arguing to the contrary has deliberately chosen to ignore those facts. Obama is a Muslim born in Kenya. Climate change is not real. Jet fuel can't melt steel beams. JFK was killed by a magic bullet. The Holocaust never happened. Snowden is a terrorist and a treasonous traitor.

Does anyone really still have the time or energy to argue with a birther? Or a Holocaust denier? There's no evidence supporting their point of view, so why is it up to me to have to prove them wrong? Every reasonable person already accepts that what the NSA was doing is wrong. You can't hold the simultaneous opinions that Snowden was a traitor who should be punished and that the NSA was wrong for conducting illegal wiretaps.

I would actually argue that it's not wasting time to insult them, it's wasting time arguing with them. If you try to prove them wrong, they're going to engage you in their nonsense, because their mind is already made up. If you insult them, they're more likely to just leave you alone. But no matter what, you're not going to change their minds.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#72

Post by ievahanordah »

Sneakos wrote: post #7

One thing this article doesn't take into account is that the movie the author undoubtedly watched before writing this was full of inaccuracies, and had the purpose of establishing Snowden as a martyr or sorts. This is evident because rather than just prove their point, the author makes several attempts to make sure the reader knows that if you hold an opposing view, you are intellectually lazy and unable to cope with…

That is my least favorite argument.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#73

Post by PavlovsCat »

canttestthis wrote: post #44
peterkelly wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What illegal activities did the NSA perform here? See the first link in my comment. > In case you didn't notice, the Snowden leaks revealed filters that removed US citizens' communications, showing that they were complying with US laws that prevent the US military (of which the NSA is part of) from spying on US citizens. So what? As one of the 7.1 billion people who are not US citizens, I object to the notion that…

> As surprising as this may sound, those of us born in other countries have the same rights too, and deserve the same protections. Citizens of other countries in fact don't have the same rights and protections against the NSA as citizens. It's why the NSA exists.

That's a bit like saying murder is legal because murderers exist.

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

And yes, I know, human rights and international law are kind of lacking enforcement, so compared to stealing a lollipop or something, of course there is no legal problem with what the NSA is doing. But "it's gotta be okay or it wouldn't happen"? Nah.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#74

Post by freehunter »

bsparker wrote: post #19

A medal? I understand the importance of Snowden's revelations and I know he believes he did everything the only way it played out. But that doesn't mean he is above the law. Civil disobedience still implies civility and he should come to his day in court. We don't know what he's given Russia or China in order to remain on the run, even Glenn Greenwald admits that here, when discussing Snowden's "self preservation": h…

If I'm being chased by a murderer and I steal a bicycle to get away from certain death, should I later be punished for stealing that bicycle? Or is it generally accepted that I did what I had to do to save my life from the injustice that would surely happen had I not been able to escape?

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#75

Post by waqf »

bsparker wrote: post #19

A medal? I understand the importance of Snowden's revelations and I know he believes he did everything the only way it played out. But that doesn't mean he is above the law. Civil disobedience still implies civility and he should come to his day in court. We don't know what he's given Russia or China in order to remain on the run, even Glenn Greenwald admits that here, when discussing Snowden's "self preservation": h…

> he should come to his day in court.

I don't believe he would get a fair trial. I don't think he believes he would, either. In fact, the US refuses to promise him one: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/03/edward-snowden-wants-t...

If you think he'd even get a fair trial if he returned to the US, then that's the point you need to be justifying.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#76

Post by lucozade »

DanBC wrote: post #60
lucozade wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> those of us born in other countries have the same rights too Not in US law we don't. To my knowledge there is no internationally agreed and enforceable privacy law. Now, as a UK citizen, I'm not exactly jumping with joy for either what the NSA or GCHQ have done but, from the point of view of US courts, spying on me is not something that bothers them hugely.

> To my knowledge there is no internationally agreed and enforceable privacy law. Article 8? https://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/human-rights/what-ar...

The full name is "Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights". Doesn't cover the US or Australia unfortunately.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#78

Post by freehunter »

NoGravitas wrote: post #57
grabcocque wrote: post #15

Thanks to Snowden, the US intelligence services are now able to do more bulk surveillance, and they do so on a sounder legal footing and with full political backing but minimal oversight. None of this would have been possible without Snowden. So, thanks, I guess.

Could you expand on your reasoning here?

I can on his behalf, because I understand where he's coming from (though I don't agree with the conclusion). I've actually heard this argument a number of times before. Obviously I'm not speaking for him, just my interpretation of where he's coming from.

Snowden revealed the things the NSA was doing that he believed to be illegal. The government agreed that what the NSA was doing was illegal, but no one really knew about it before Snowden revealed it. However in the aftermath, the government decided that while the NSA was doing something illegal, they were doing it because they believed it was necessary, and the government agreed. So they changed the laws to make legal what the NSA had previously been doing illegally. The net result is, everything Snowden warned us about is now legal and nothing has changed.

An unfortunate, unintended consequence, but I would strongly hesitate to blame it on Snowden. If he hadn't said anything, it would have continued, hidden away. If he did say something, it would be codified into law. Net result is, it was going to happen anyway. But at least everyone knows about it now, and I consider that to be a positive.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#79

Post by nickpsecurity »

DanBC wrote: post #60
lucozade wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> those of us born in other countries have the same rights too Not in US law we don't. To my knowledge there is no internationally agreed and enforceable privacy law. Now, as a UK citizen, I'm not exactly jumping with joy for either what the NSA or GCHQ have done but, from the point of view of US courts, spying on me is not something that bothers them hugely.

> To my knowledge there is no internationally agreed and enforceable privacy law. Article 8? https://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/human-rights/what-ar...

And an article in U.S. constitution says it's enforceable because U.S. agreed to it.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#80

Post by JohnStrange »

omginternets wrote: post #8
Sneakos wrote: post #7

One thing this article doesn't take into account is that the movie the author undoubtedly watched before writing this was full of inaccuracies, and had the purpose of establishing Snowden as a martyr or sorts. This is evident because rather than just prove their point, the author makes several attempts to make sure the reader knows that if you hold an opposing view, you are intellectually lazy and unable to cope with…

>don't make an article about how the opposing stance is only held by the weak minded. What if you really think that's the case? Screw it, I'll say it. I think anyone who condemns Snowden is intellectually lazy or has vested interests in NSA surveillance. I have yet to see a single cogent rebuttal of Snowden's moral case.

Nah, some people just think that the crimes Snowden committed, like violation of NDAs etc., outweigh his moral duty to publish the misdeeds of various NSA programs. I'm not one of them but that's still a logical and consistent point of view anyone can have. Some people also value honor higher than not lying, and vice versa, or keeping a promise given to a friend higher than life&death. Values are tricky and there are no easy solutions.
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