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JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

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Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#71

Post by catnaroek »

mafribe wrote: post #58
catnaroek wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too much wishful thinking during the second half of the talk, though. Also, while fancy runtime systems can improve the performance of dynamic[0] languages, it doesn't come for free: the price to be paid is the loss of elegance. For instance, a JIT compiler could inline a virtual method that seems not to be overridden anywhere, but if later on it turns out that the virtual method was overridden somewhere, the “optimi…

trust a language that ... Where's the problem? JIT compilers work. Most high-level languages require compiler tricks for achieving performance from Scala to Haskell to Prolog. It's useful to distinguish between (1) having a clean, easy to understand semantics and (2) having a fast implementation. Use all the hackery in the world to get your language fast, as long as it's abstract semantics is easy and canonical.

> Most high-level languages require compiler tricks for achieving performance from Scala to Haskell to Prolog.

To make things perfectly clear: I'm not against optimizations being performed automatically by compilers or runtime systems. What I'm against is unclean designs: deliberately performing an unsound optimization and then rolling it back is an unclean design.

> Use all the hackery in the world to get your language fast,

The language implementation is a program itself, and I don't have any good reasons to trust a hackish language implementation any more than I trust other hackish programs - that is, not at all.

> as long as it's abstract semantics is easy and canonical.

Hah! This thread is about JavaScript.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#72

Post by rjbwork »

seibelj wrote: post #39

I know many languages but JS is what a lot of new companies need, therefore I have devoted myself to it. On my own time, I like to code in C, because it is a pleasure to use something so fast and close to the metal, and requires such a different style of programming (disciplined paranoia) and allows me maximum control over application resources.

IMO C and JS both stink. Give me statically typed, memory managed, expressivity or give me death.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#73

Post by Udik »

n00b101 wrote: post #7
dismantlethesun wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is pretty excessive, but maybe web assembly would find a real home in making applications that do well on both native and web.

WebAssembly will hopefully end JavaScript's stranglehold on the web. The justification for using JavaScript for server/desktop/mobile applications seems to essentially be that a certain large group of programmers only know JavaScript.

I guess you tend to reuse the technologies you're familiar with, especially when they are very well proven for solving a very complicated problem that requires a lot of expertise (I'm talking about fancy UIs, of course).

Which is also why I think the emphasis on JS is wrong: the main selling point of these technologies is NOT javascript, is HTML5/ CSS. Javascript is just a (very handy indeed) scripting language like any other: frankly the logic and requirements of most applications around are not complex enough to justify the usage of anything more solid or complicated than that. Just today I was contacted by a former colleague, a Java developer, asking advice on using Electron to develop a quick desktop application.

On the other hand, there is a long list of languages that transpile to javascript. So where are the masses of serious C#/ Java/ developers using transpilers to write the logic of their web applications?

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#74

Post by davej »

kartan wrote: post #54
niftich wrote: post #40

The salient points of the article: - People are stuffing websites into Electron and packaging it as a native application - HTML/CSS/JS is considered 'hackable' because it's widely understood by today's semi-power-user audience Although the article doesn't say it, this seems to imply that: - Full-native development unique on each platform is considered too much effort, when you can get a cross-platform app with Electr…

> HTML/CSS/JS is considered 'hackable' because it's widely understood by today's semi-power-user audience I think that's related to the high fault-tolerance in Javascript. A good developer is good in any language, so she can work with Javascript. A beginner or even a bad developer can make things happen in Javascript, when that is not always possible in other languages. So the entry point level is so low that a lot o…

>> > HTML/CSS/JS is considered 'hackable' because it's widely understood by today's semi-power-user audience

> I think that's related to the high fault-tolerance in Javascript.

Also, in Electron apps you can access the Chromium Dev Tools directly in the app (unless the app author has disabled it). Chromium's Dev Tools are pretty much the gold-standard for hacking during runtime.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#75

Post by bryanrasmussen »

simula67 wrote: post #62

> It turns out it’s useful to have a lingua franca for the web. No, I don't think so. Most people do not use JavaScript since it is useful. They use it since it is the only option available on the browser. There is a BIG difference. > Creating desktop apps in JavaScript lets developers choose from a vast range of freely available code libraries and frameworks, which takes much of the grunt work out of coding Lots of…

>Most people do not use JavaScript since it is useful. They >use it since it is the only option available on the browser.

Maybe it's the only option available on the browser because it is useful to have a lingua franca for the web.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#76

Post by _prototype_ »

segmondy wrote: post #27
rplst8 wrote: post #2

I'm not an expert, but the memory required to render the seemingly simplest of interfaces in html/js/css in a browser today seems excessive. Some web sites bring a reasonably powered desktop to its knees. I'm not sure I want this problem on my desktop too. Though I guess this is just one step closer to having METAL. https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...

See the spotify client, popcorn time, visual studio code. these are javascript. They run great.

Also the Slack web client

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#77

Post by ZenoArrow »

simula67 wrote: post #62

> It turns out it’s useful to have a lingua franca for the web. No, I don't think so. Most people do not use JavaScript since it is useful. They use it since it is the only option available on the browser. There is a BIG difference. > Creating desktop apps in JavaScript lets developers choose from a vast range of freely available code libraries and frameworks, which takes much of the grunt work out of coding Lots of…

> "Slightly tangentially though, I wonder if we really really put our mind to it, will we be able to just kill JavaScript ?"

Kill maybe too string a word (languages that reach the level of usage of JavaScript tend to stick around regardless of what's currently popular), but for me the main promise of WebAssembly is to allow web browsers to branch out from JavaScript as the only native programming language of the web (as well as improving performance).

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#80

Post by inputcoffee »

scrollaway wrote: post #66
simula67 wrote: post #62

> It turns out it’s useful to have a lingua franca for the web. No, I don't think so. Most people do not use JavaScript since it is useful. They use it since it is the only option available on the browser. There is a BIG difference. > Creating desktop apps in JavaScript lets developers choose from a vast range of freely available code libraries and frameworks, which takes much of the grunt work out of coding Lots of…

> Most people do not use JavaScript since it is useful. They use it since it is the only option available on the browser. You're not contradicting what you are replying to. People are using Javascript because it's the only option, but it is useful to have a lingua franca. I just wish that lingua franca wasn't Javascript.

I agree with the first part.

The issues of: "utility of lingua franca" and "ubiquity of Javascript" are orthogonal issues.

It seems everyone agrees that Javascript would not have been the first choice of language. There is no short argument there, you have to go out and try at least one other language and compare them.

However, on the second question, I don't see why it is useful to have a lingua franca.

Multiple languages arise out of multiple needs. You want a superfast language for your OS, you want a quick high level language for quickly examining data, you want a language that describes visuals and so forth.

What are the benefits of a lingua franca for the internet, or any other domain? They still get to exchange data in an agreed upon format.

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