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Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

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71–80 of 127 posts

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#71
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Surely you understand the difference between middle class people taking some sugar and people believing unwaveringly that herbs will protect them from that shotgun. I don't understand it; please spell it out for me because all I see is magical thinking. If you think homeopathy isn't a matter of life and death, you might have not considered the people whose lives could have been saved had they turned to real medicin…

I'd love to hear from negative consequences directly attributable to homeopathy and not caused by the state of mind of those seeking it exclusively.

Colloidal silver will eventually turn you a nice shade of blue.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#72
post #23

Given the "gift in one hand, gun in the other" history of western actions in Kenya and other African countries over the last centuries, it's hardly surprising there's going to be the random pocket of paranoid skepticism, no matter how good the UBI marketing/education. I'm personally confused as to why anyone would think it's a good idea to trial UBI in Kenya, as a sort of private charity initiative, given the sordid…

Downvoting a comment you disagree with is not polite.

I've actually lived and worked in Africa for much of my life. I'm married to a Congolese and have been surrounded for a dozen years by that culture. My family has worked and works in Africa. I've spent years working for organizations that ran projects across Africa. My questions and cynicism doesn't fall out of the air.

If you take issue with points I've raised, good manners dictate that you reply to those points without trying to punish me for raising them, as some of you did, which is cool.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#73
post #12

When I first read the headline, I saw "Many Keynesians refusing basic income experiment", which confused me because I thought Keynes fans would totally go for UBI. But yeah, free money looks a lot like colonialism if you squint. I can see people avoiding it. You get $500 a month now, and then 3 months later, they come asking for a "favor" in return, and it would be a shame if something happened to your kneecaps. This…

That is something I had never considered. If many people become dependent on UBI, they are entirely dependent on the state - to the point they can be taken advantage of if power is abused. UBI in some ways does take an element of freedom from people, granted it may provide other forms of freedom. What is to stop the government from changing the laws to require everyone only on UBI (no job) to perform some form of com…

The same thing that, presumably, stops government from doing those things now - voters.

That's not to say that system of checks works. Places like Florida have enacted mandatory drug testing for welfare recipients, so there's obviously some political will to punish and regulate the poor.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#74
post #12

When I first read the headline, I saw "Many Keynesians refusing basic income experiment", which confused me because I thought Keynes fans would totally go for UBI. But yeah, free money looks a lot like colonialism if you squint. I can see people avoiding it. You get $500 a month now, and then 3 months later, they come asking for a "favor" in return, and it would be a shame if something happened to your kneecaps. This…

That is something I had never considered. If many people become dependent on UBI, they are entirely dependent on the state - to the point they can be taken advantage of if power is abused. UBI in some ways does take an element of freedom from people, granted it may provide other forms of freedom. What is to stop the government from changing the laws to require everyone only on UBI (no job) to perform some form of com…

The same thing that, presumably, stops government from doing those things now - voters.

That's not to say that system of checks works. Places like Florida have enacted mandatory drug testing for welfare recipients, so there's obviously some political will to punish and regulate the poor.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#75
post #16
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"to educate the people" It's not 'reading and arithmetic' that's the problem. It's a basic lack of intelligent social organization across the board. It's the thousand little bits of behaviour that make you 'civilized' vis-a-vis other cultures. I'm weary of the using the word 'civilized' because it sounds a little colonialist, but when people turn to 'magic spells' for many things ... you know there really are some de…

> but when people turn to 'magic spells' for many things ... you know there really are some deep issues. All across Europe and North America (especially the US), people regularly turn to magic spells (praying). These are the places that us westerners think of as the primary 'civilised' societies, but 'magic' is commonplace there as well.

There's a difference between relying on prayers for everything and relying on prayers as something extra that can only help.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#76
Aren't those basic income experiments kind of useless?

Giving people money for a limited time doesn't give them the notion, that they can rely on the money supply for the rest of their lives. They still have to earn an equivalent sum once the supply stops and make their decisions accordingly.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#77
I just got an email from Shroud of the Avatar last night -- apparently the developers are worried about unequal SotA gold distribution and are implementing some sort of UBI-like scheme in that game. Would be interested to see how that works out, given the ideal virtual circumstances for enforcing such a law (ie, no cheating or corruption possible).

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#78
"Many Kenyans refusing basic income."

I'm not sure how representative this project is. I mean, if someone tried a pilot project in San Antonio, would the results of that project be taken as a representative outcome for Texas or the United States? Remember, this "sampling," such as it is, is different from the kind of sampling they do on opinion polls, why they query a small but representative sample of the population.

My guess as to why they're failing is that they're not clearly elucidating their purposes and intentions. For instance, I can confirm to you that if you came to Kenya where you gave, say, high milk-production breeds of cows to dairy farmers, or any other similar thing with a clear quid (if not pro quo), then the uptake would probably overwhelm you.

But with free basic income, it's a very counter-intuitive idea. What do you mean you're giving me free money? Where is it coming from? What's your intention? What do I have to do for it?

If they were to explain that they're conducting an experiment (I bet they're not clear on that point) where they want to see what people would do with their lives if they had a certain basic income guaranteed by someone (say, government), then Kenyans would take you up on the offer, I'm sure. After all, many Kenyans expect and often call upon the government to help in all kinds of areas, so if you took that basic-income-provided-by-government angle as your ultimate goal, I think people would listen.

That lack of clarity is what is most likely causing people to shun the money.

It's not that Kenyans don't want free money. We probably do. After all,we seem to be very keen, for example, on these churches where you "plant a seed" (give money to the church in exchange for "blessings"), and money given out during political campaign seasons (we have one coming up next year) always seems to be taken up very well. But in these cases, the financial logic is not clear.

Where is the logic with free basic income? If you don't clearly and understandably explain that to people, you're going to fail. Especially if when they ask you to explain and your response is something along the lines of "Why do you care? It's free money, you sucker living below the poverty line." (I'm not saying that's what happened. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was).

PS: Just because I'm Kenyan doesn't make me an expert, or even basic informed, on Kenya. Just because you live in a country doesn't necessarily mean you understand it. Exhibit A: Trump supporters. Exhibit B: Brexit.

Edit: typo.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#80
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, this "quote" was provided second-hand decades after it happened, and only after Ehrlichman was no longer in a position to deny its accuracy (read: dead and in the ground). Harpers is probably one of the few places where that sort of thing that could get past editorial scrutiny. (Or, maybe not, maybe I'm just being insufficiently cynical.) And yet between here and reddit, I think I see this pop up…

Even if it turns out to be untrue, what does it say that it sounds so plausible/believable, so many people are quoting it? Either way, it seems people don't have a lot of faith in the government, and there are plausible examples of things the government has done to put itself in this situation. Another example from the same era, gulf of tonkin incident. It doesn't matter what it costs the people at the bottom if the…

To play devil's advocate the thing that could make it sound so plausible is confirmation bias.
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