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The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

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Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#71

Post by dwaltrip »

notliketherest wrote: post #35

All of this "self exploration, cosmos consciousness, soul enlightenment" justification for using these drugs sounds to me like the promises of profit in Tim Ferris' 4 hour work week: 1) take drugs 2) ??? 3) Enlightenment. You know that Mt Fuji analogy whereby a hiker hikes to the top of Mt Fuji for enlightenment, choosing his path on the way? Well it seems to me like this people are looking for a quick helicopter rid…

They are a tool. I think a good analogy is an empty notebook. The notebook provides a potential medium for personal enrichment, but you need to have a prepared mind to get anything out of it.

I would argue that psychedelics are much more powerful than a notebook, but also require greater care and preparation.

Many opt to simply have the analogous experience of "doodling in the notebook", as it requires much less effort and can be great fun. However, this does leave greater potential for a bad trip if one is not ready to face what they may encounter.

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#72

Post by stinkytaco »

fragola wrote: post #52
oldmanjay wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the sheer amount of bullshit surrounding these drugs leaves me with a duty to take heavy doses of psychedelics and proudly learn nothing but "boy that was fun"

Agreed on the bullshit. I think this might have something to do with me growing up in a certain hippy town on the California coast, but I couldn't get through this article without a lot of eye-rolling. OK, let's just put the whole drug thing aside and call it a hobby. You can have a hobby without having a pseudospiritual and vaguely appropriative justification for it. Bodybuilders have a term that they use to describ…

Offtopic, but unfortunately broscience has extended beyond pharmaceuticals to training practice. This kind of thinking dominates the crossfit world with terms like "muscle confusion" and "failure". It's sad because I got into crossfit ten years ago because it was fun, something different every day kept me coming back. I didn't want to be a Navy SEAL, just to keep active, but the almost religious adherence to the training philosophy -- and the injuries sustained by several people I knew -- drove me away. Now I find myself sedentary and looking for something similar, but less pseudo-scientific.

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#73

Post by throwanem »

ap22213 wrote: post #45

Why does the plant produce DMT? Is it a poison? Are there other plants that produce it? I wonder about the evolutionary reasons for its emergence. Does the plant influence the Human so that the Human protects and nurtures the plant? When did Humans begin altering South America? 15,000 years ago? More than enough time for the plant to adapt. It's a strange feeling to ingest a hallucination producing organism. I rememb…

Might want to spend some time thinking about that phrase "evolutionary reasons". There's an assumption in there I'm not sure you've noticed.

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#74

Post by jomamaxx »

Kroniker wrote: post #58
jomamaxx wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. This is not a toy drug. This is heavy-duty. I wonder if there is maybe something simple, medically, that can be done by a 'non pro' - like - if there are specific and identifiable symptoms - 'take this pill' which has a neutralizing or softening effect or something. Hopefully something safe and natural. Maybe even something like 'drink caffeine and eat something fatty' - or whatever might work that's easy and…

As far as I know, you can get "chill pills", I think maybe benzodiazepines will calm you down, but even in an ER they just make sure you're safe and let your ride it out. Once that roller coaster starts it needs to run it's course. Source: Burnout friend.

I think for opioid overdose there is a medical intervention, but for these psychedelic things ... I guess there isn't much to do.

But psychological risk is real. My friend did something similar in Brazil and had 'fear' episodes for years.

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#75

Post by fragola »

stinkytaco wrote: post #72
fragola wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed on the bullshit. I think this might have something to do with me growing up in a certain hippy town on the California coast, but I couldn't get through this article without a lot of eye-rolling. OK, let's just put the whole drug thing aside and call it a hobby. You can have a hobby without having a pseudospiritual and vaguely appropriative justification for it. Bodybuilders have a term that they use to describ…

Offtopic, but unfortunately broscience has extended beyond pharmaceuticals to training practice. This kind of thinking dominates the crossfit world with terms like "muscle confusion" and "failure". It's sad because I got into crossfit ten years ago because it was fun, something different every day kept me coming back. I didn't want to be a Navy SEAL, just to keep active, but the almost religious adherence to the trai…

I am similarly put off by yoga, which as practiced currently is not an "ancient tradition" but a bizarre relic of 19th century Indian nationalism[0]

Some people find the woo motivating, but I find it to be a distraction. I want my exercise regimen woo-free, thank you very much.

[0]http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/2989a78a-ee94-...

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#76

Post by stinkytaco »

fragola wrote: post #75
stinkytaco wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Offtopic, but unfortunately broscience has extended beyond pharmaceuticals to training practice. This kind of thinking dominates the crossfit world with terms like "muscle confusion" and "failure". It's sad because I got into crossfit ten years ago because it was fun, something different every day kept me coming back. I didn't want to be a Navy SEAL, just to keep active, but the almost religious adherence to the trai…

I am similarly put off by yoga, which as practiced currently is not an "ancient tradition" but a bizarre relic of 19th century Indian nationalism[0] Some people find the woo motivating, but I find it to be a distraction. I want my exercise regimen woo-free, thank you very much. [0] http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/2989a78a-ee94-...

I would actually argue that yoga is now sufficiently commercialized as to bear little resemblance to anything "ancient" or "mystical". I can buy a book, get some videos or take a class and hear nothing spiritual at all. (Side note: Mark Lauren, in his fairly good _You Are Your Own Gym_ covers yoga a bit). This isn't to say there's not lots of people selling the "spiritual enlightenment" line.

I think all exercise programs tend to have a something to sell, because otherwise how do you make money? It's an interesting balancing act, however. Your doctor can tell you "get more exercise", but that's a pretty abstract concept that requires planning, commitment and is by definition kind of uncomfortable. So a whole industry has grown up around branding exercise. It works, too. Some of it is better than others, but people, myself included, buy it. We might buy it because we're gullible, we might buy it because it's easier than coming up with our own plan or more interesting when executing it.

But the number of books that grace the shelves with words like "warrior", "ultimate", "prescription", "philosophy", "enlightenment", "Spartan", "SEAL", etc, etc, etc. is pretty staggering. But frankly, whatever works. Insurance companies often incentivize gym memberships, but rarely do they pay for you to regularly see a trainer, so whatever is safe that gets people exercising. I complain, but it's not even in the same league of problematic as unregulated administration of pharmaceuticals by spiritual leaders.

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#77

Post by unfunco »

ap22213 wrote: post #45

Why does the plant produce DMT? Is it a poison? Are there other plants that produce it? I wonder about the evolutionary reasons for its emergence. Does the plant influence the Human so that the Human protects and nurtures the plant? When did Humans begin altering South America? 15,000 years ago? More than enough time for the plant to adapt. It's a strange feeling to ingest a hallucination producing organism. I rememb…

Thousands of organisms (including rats and humans) biosynthesise dimethyltryptamine, and to me at least, that's not the interesting part, the part I find more interesting is that of the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of plant species in the Amazonian jungle, they found the two that work together, oral DMT isn't normally active, as it's broken down by monamine-oxidase, one of the plants in Ayahuasca is an inhibitor of this enzyme.

A similar story exists around the discovery of LSD (LSD-25 was just one in a sequence of lysergic asid that was synthesised by Albert Hoffman) – it was years later that Hoffman decided to revisit the compound, thinking... "There must be something there..."

It's all likely coincidence, but there exists (especially with plants, such as those that produce DMT, and Psilocybin) that we have evolved together.

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#79

Post by stevetrewick »

rconti wrote: post #70
zizzles wrote: post #54

In my eyes the VERY FACT that psychedelics like N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) even exist in the FIRST place (and take you on the experiences that they take you) can NOT be some sort of coincidence. I am not suggesting that they are some special all-knowing tool, but the sheer potency of DMT and the other-worldly-dimension-changing-states-of-mind that it yields when consumed can not be shrugged off as just another recr…

I'm confused. It cannot be a coincidence that substances exist on this earth that alter our consciousness? Why not? There are all kinds of substances found naturally that can change the way you feel, change the way your body acts, kill you, make you hallucinate, whatever. Is it proof that there has to be a purpose behind them? I forgot what the term is, but is this not like the fallacy of believing there must be a cr…

Possibly the argument from personal incredulity?[0] Or maybe the Anthropic Principle? [1] Little column A, little column B?

[0] http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity#Perso...

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#80

Post by tejaswidp »

Kroniker wrote: post #51
steauengeglase wrote: post #36

While I don't doubt the psychological benefits of ayahuasca (or any hallucinogenic), the language of many of those advocating in the article set off red flags. "Format your harddrive", reminds of Arch Oboler's "Society of the Cosmos", something dreamed up by Evangelical hucksters who didn't see a future in peddling Jesus so they turned to techno speak to wring out the marks. "We manifest abundance wherever we go," so…

One of my favorite Terrence McKenna quotes: "Once you've gotten the message, hang up the phone." Hallucinogens may deliver you the message, but you need to know to take it once you have it, and not go crazy taking more and more. I have a friend who fell down that rabbit hole. Doesn't seem to end well.

Alan watts said that. Terrence Mckenna would probably say the opposite.
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