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Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

theguardian.com

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Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#71

Post by nradov »

benbreen wrote: post #32
anupshinde wrote: post #24

Shouldn't we as humans bury the longer past and move on and look at the present-day scenario? I know many will say - "What about justice to our ancestors?". Justice is done to them when their children(descendants) do not suffer similar injustice and/or live a better life. How many parents want their kids to live in a war-waging world? I understand what she did was very hard work. But what's the point? People who rais…

I have no issue with the anti-war aspects of what you wrote. But as an historian, I feel like I ought to write a defense of remembering past injustices. I think there are several grounds for doing so: - I can't speak for Caroline Elkins, but I think that many historians, including myself, believe that every human life that was ever lived has some value and deserves to be remembered, as far as that's possible. As livi…

As a counterpoint I think remembrance of past injustices is one of the key obstacles holding back the former Yugoslavia. People there tend to be aware of history (or at least their own version of it) going back to 1389 in a way that most Americans can't grasp. And although they might be right in some moral sense, so what? This just encourages a victim mentality and won't get them anywhere in the long run.

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#72

Post by anupshinde »

apozem wrote: post #38
anupshinde wrote: post #24

Shouldn't we as humans bury the longer past and move on and look at the present-day scenario? I know many will say - "What about justice to our ancestors?". Justice is done to them when their children(descendants) do not suffer similar injustice and/or live a better life. How many parents want their kids to live in a war-waging world? I understand what she did was very hard work. But what's the point? People who rais…

This is a very naive view of history and reconciliation. It's easy to say, "Yes, it was bad, but why don't we move on? Why be divisive and bring up past wrongs?" when you were not the one tortured. I would even call it churlish to preach "forgive and forget" when our countries (assuming you are a Westerner) have been doing wrong by these other countries for centuries. Pretending history never happened is not only dis…

No, I am no westerner. I know what I am talking about. My country was oppressed by the British Empire and was left independent severely impoverished. But we are on our way up, slowly and steadily. People have moved on and have learnt to stand united in diversity

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#73

Post by throwaway-hn123 »

golergka wrote: post #70
throwaway-hn123 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess people get upset about this sort of thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_major_famines_in_I... Or this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/7991820... But sure, focus on some absurd strawman, and ignore the millions of deaths that the British were responsible for.

Once again, you're taking my comment, throw out all attempt to be detailed and nuanced and assume that I have a radical point of view just because it's easier for you to digest and argue against. Can we please stop this pattern in internet discussions? You're arguing against a strawman that is completely absent here.

You've taken one absurd article (not even cited), and used it to fuel some specious argument that just people regard western colonialism as unique. I'm just pointing out that British colonialism (directly relevant, because of Pakistan) was a bad thing, regardless of whether other empires also acted savagely, and regardless of whether a handful of people use it as an excuse for current abhorrent behaviours.

Not sure what's so hard to understand.

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#74

Post by Spooky23 »

JetSetWilly wrote: post #34
Spooky23 wrote: post #6

I think a better example of the evilness of the British Empire is the Irish experience in the 19th century. You lose the "excuse" of racism and are left with religious sectarianism and sheer greed for the policy. The British put inhumane and genocidal policies in place, starving millions in a land of plenty.

The initial British response was to buy £100,000 of corn meal from the US to import to Ireland to combat the famine. This doesn't seem like an action of a government intent on genocide. It seems more to me that British policy in Ireland during the famine is marked by an extreme ideological commitment to laissez faire economics (ie, letting land owners export food from Ireland in large quantities to make money, lettin…

Trevelyan shut that down immediately. His credo: "Irish property support Irish poverty."

Small catch: bumper harvests of oats, wheat and meats were being exported, protected by bayonet. The citizens were living off of kitchen gardens, which is why potatoes were a staple to begin with -- the lord wouldn't give peasant rabble access to enough land to grow corn or wheat for private consumption.

After the second potato crop failure in 1846: > Trevelyan's free market relief plan depended on private merchants supplying food to peasants who were earning wages through public works employment financed mainly by the Irish themselves through local taxes. But the problems with this plan were numerous. Tax revues were insufficient. Wages had been set too low. Paydays were irregular and those who did get work could not afford to both pay their rent and buy food. Ireland also lacked adequate transportation for efficient food distribution. There were only 70 miles of railroad track in the whole country and no usable commercial shipping docks in the western districts.

> By September, starvation struck in the west and southwest where the people had been entirely dependent on the potato. British Coastguard Inspector-General, Sir James Dombrain, upon encountering starving paupers, ordered his subordinates to give free food handouts. For his efforts, Dombrain was publicly A starving boy and girl in Cork hoping to find a potato. rebuked by Trevelyan. The proper procedure, he was informed, would have been to encourage the Irish to form a local relief committee so that Irish funds could have been raised to provide the food.

You can claim that denying a man dying of thirst a glass of water isn't harming him. But when you do that systematically, don't pretend that it's any different than killing him some other way.

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#75

Post by throwaway-hn123 »

lobotryas wrote: post #54
throwaway-hn123 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess people get upset about this sort of thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_major_famines_in_I... Or this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/7991820... But sure, focus on some absurd strawman, and ignore the millions of deaths that the British were responsible for.

No one in this thread is claiming the Brits were innocent lambs. Parent is pointing out that violence is endemic to empire, regardless whether that empire was built by the west, asia, or africa. Engaging in "what-about-ism" will not get a conversation far.

There is a very common narrative that tries to say that the British Empire was good for India, and wasn't like all the other savage empires.

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#76

Post by Spooky23 »

JetSetWilly wrote: post #56
pjriot wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it seems like the action of a government attempting to appear concerned when quite clearly humanitarian issues were a tertiary concern. If a genocide occurs as a result of a commitment to a political or economic ideology, does intention really matter?

I think it matters, because the very definition of genocide involves deliberate intent and policy to achieve the goal of wiping out a people.

Trevelyan in a letter to the poor law commissioner of Ireland:

"We must not complain of what we really want to obtain. If small farmers go, and their landlords are reduced to sell portions of their estates to persons who will invest capital we shall at last arrive at something like a satisfactory settlement of the country".

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#77

Post by keyboardwarrior »

pjriot wrote: post #69
JetSetWilly wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the very thing I am talking about. Britain was the first country in which it was a massive political liability to support slavery, and the first country in which the opinions of ordinary people mobilising and campaigning against slavery actually mattered and made a difference. You can cast this in cynical terms as self interest, but you can do that with any action by any state in history - Britain is hardly un…

I don't think its being particularly cynical to say if the industries supported by slavery had not been supplanted somewhat (reducing their political power) then slavery would have continued apace. Politicians have proven adept at taking advantage of popular movements when suitable. Its basic economics. Had the ruling elite deemed it necessary I'm sure Punch could have been commissioned to print all manner of xenopho…

very dark yet very accurate

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#78

Post by keyboardwarrior »

RodericDay wrote: post #53
Ressuder wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it curious how some people seem to not believe in moral relativism. Do they not recognise that by doing so they are saying that they themselves are "evil" and immoral? If you look at the contemporaries of the British Empire they do not stand out as exceptional either good or bad morally. Meanwhile, if you compare the Nazis to their contemporaries they do however stand out (though not nearly as some people migh…

This is an ultra-conservative mindset. By only judging people according to what their contemporaries were doing, you basically relieve pressure from questioning the mores of our own day, since we rest easy knowing we will be judged according to what was "normal" for us. I find it ethically very dubious. Certainly many people committing atrocities have been "going along with the flow" of their own local environments.

I think the mindset is valid but the people behind it are inconsistent, if your locale is being around indignous african people. Then killing and enslaving them kinda goes against the whole "act local" thing.

Thereby making them immoral by their own standards. You cannot export your sense of locality to somewhere else, i dont think thats how it works.

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#79

Post by golergka »

throwaway-hn123 wrote: post #73
golergka wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once again, you're taking my comment, throw out all attempt to be detailed and nuanced and assume that I have a radical point of view just because it's easier for you to digest and argue against. Can we please stop this pattern in internet discussions? You're arguing against a strawman that is completely absent here.

You've taken one absurd article (not even cited), and used it to fuel some specious argument that just people regard western colonialism as unique. I'm just pointing out that British colonialism (directly relevant, because of Pakistan) was a bad thing, regardless of whether other empires also acted savagely, and regardless of whether a handful of people use it as an excuse for current abhorrent behaviours. Not sure w…

You understand that I never contradicted the fact you're pointing out, right?

Re: Uncovering the truth about the British empire and the Mau Mau uprising

#80

Post by ganeshkrishnan »

golergka wrote: post #17
afandian wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what your point is. Yes lots of nations commit atrocities and have done through time. If anything that's less of a reason to disbelieve that your taxes, and those of your predecessors, are being spent on atrocities.

I think that the parent comment author meant the usual anti-colonialism which attacks western colonialism as something unique and blames virtually any hardships of former colonies on it. I recently saw an article which argued that honor killings in Pakistan are to be blamed on colonialism — because, apparently, palistani men felt oppressed by colonial past and had to take it out on their wives, daughters and sisters.…

Not sure about Pakistan but such honor killings exist in India too. I never heard anyone blame colonialism for these behavior. Infact social reformers were working on eradicating these behavior years before the British even arrived in India (For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_Mohan_Roy).

That said: We just elected our first ever PM that was born in post-colonial India and you are implying that colonialism didn't have much effect on our mentality when infact most of our 'backward' mentality is due to colonial principles. See "Doctrine of Lapse", "Divide and Rule", "Zamindars" (British policy of awarding land to "higher caste" who were sympathetic to British)

The GDP contribution of India to the world was 25% (It's ~15% for USA now) and during colonial times it was less than 1%. We are back to around 3% now

Colonial mindset and Colonization is very recent and has much more effect than you think. Most of the British museum have all the goods stolen during colonization. Like John Oliver said "The entire British Museum is basically an active crime scene"

To top it off the British government has not paid a single dollar as reparations (http://www.britishreparations.org/facts.php). Not that we need it but put the money where your mouth is if you are really apologetic about your past actions.

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