There's plenty of good advice in this thread, but ultimately you won't know until you work there. After 20 years in the business, what I've done and would advise people to do, is to negotiate a 6 month contract-to-hire arrangement. This way it's all out in the open that you'll be evaluating each other and there's less hard feelings if you walk at the end of the contract.
That's an interesting angle. I've always assumed that the C-to-H arrangements were for the benefit of the employer, not necessarily the employee.
Ask HN: Interview tomorrow – How to learn whether an org is “healthy”?
71–80 of 127 posts
Re: Ask HN: Interview tomorrow – How to learn whether an org is “healthy”?
#72Re: Ask HN: Interview tomorrow – How to learn whether an org is “healthy”?
#73So they told you, an external candidate, that they're firing someone, and that you would take their position? That's a pretty big red flag with respect to organizational behavior. It seems incredibly unprofessional.
Re: Ask HN: Interview tomorrow – How to learn whether an org is “healthy”?
#74That they won't do this suggests that there is a lot of mistrust going on, or possibly optics with the investors around turnover -- not sure which is worse.
By taking the role, you will be viewed as having taken sides with the people recruiting you, but if anyone else on the team thinks it was done unfairly, you'll be dealing with the morale consequences, which you may paradoxically also be blamed for.
Look at it this way, the people recruiting you are one or more of the following:
- Afraid to have a grown up conversation with the manager they want to replace.
- Afraid that if they are upfront with the problem manager he/she will leave and it will take them a long time to find a replacement, during which time things may deteriorate. If you think this is the case, be sure to increase your salary/equity requirements substantially.
- Trying to sneakily get the upper hand on the problem manager by recruiting you behind his/her back. Anyone on the team you'd inherit who respected the former manager will likely assume you are part of the problem.
Also, sometimes when a manager is viewed negatively it's because someone on the team has the ear of higher-ups and is badmouthing the manager. So while it's possible that you would be getting a role that was inhabited by someone who couldn't quite pull it off, it's also possible that you're stepping into a situation with a lot of politics and a mutinous atmosphere. Perhaps ask if they are considering anyone on the problem manager's team for the role. If they are that might be a tell.
I'd approach it with caution, especially if considering leaving a role that you enjoy. At the very least, there are enough warning signs that you should only accept if you are ready to re-enter the job market if the culture is truly broken.
Re: Ask HN: Interview tomorrow – How to learn whether an org is “healthy”?
#75They are conspiring to replace an existing employee. That says enough. If the organization were "healthy" they would be upfront with the existing manager and allow him/her to gracefully exit. That they won't do this suggests that there is a lot of mistrust going on, or possibly optics with the investors around turnover -- not sure which is worse. By taking the role, you will be viewed as having taken sides with the p…
Re: Ask HN: Interview tomorrow – How to learn whether an org is “healthy”?
#76They are conspiring to replace an existing employee. That says enough. If the organization were "healthy" they would be upfront with the existing manager and allow him/her to gracefully exit. That they won't do this suggests that there is a lot of mistrust going on, or possibly optics with the investors around turnover -- not sure which is worse. By taking the role, you will be viewed as having taken sides with the p…
That is incredible insight. I hope the OP listens to this advice as there are several signs of a toxic organizations and is probably ignoring them on the hope that it not.
To be clear - I haven't detected any really toxic behavior. It just seems like a good-faith hire didn't work out.
Re: Ask HN: Interview tomorrow – How to learn whether an org is “healthy”?
#77Re: Ask HN: Interview tomorrow – How to learn whether an org is “healthy”?
#78My favorite interviewing question as an IC was "Tell me about someone on your team you admire". It let me learn about what people valued based on why people were admired, and gave some depth-of-bench sense whether there were lots of distinct names, or if everyone was in awe of the one good person on the team. If you're looking for cross-team health, maybe you could adapt it to "Tell me about someone on the other team…
This is an awesome question. What sort of responses have you seen from this? Do most folks have a quick answer or do you get some thought? As an interviewer, I'm not sure I would ever expect a question like this.
In hindsight, I wish I'd had enough experience with the question and possible scenarios to ask for a second answer from people in the first org; I suspect there were more good answers available, but one obvious answer that everyone snapped to first.
Re: Ask HN: Interview tomorrow – How to learn whether an org is “healthy”?
#79They are conspiring to replace an existing employee. That says enough. If the organization were "healthy" they would be upfront with the existing manager and allow him/her to gracefully exit. That they won't do this suggests that there is a lot of mistrust going on, or possibly optics with the investors around turnover -- not sure which is worse. By taking the role, you will be viewed as having taken sides with the p…
Re: Ask HN: Interview tomorrow – How to learn whether an org is “healthy”?
#80I wouldn't read too much into the fact that you'd be replacing a manager who is already working there. One of the "perks" of being a manager is that you have a big target on your back when it comes to overall organizational goals and morale. Scott McNealy used to joke "one step up, one step closer to the door." because directors and executives don't fire individual contributors, they fire managers when things aren't working out. And there are a ton of reasons that things might not work out, not the least of which is that the manager's manager can't effectively communicate "through" them. It can be a leadership style, it can be mutual respect, it can be different baggage that each of them are carrying from previous experiences.
What is important for you to understand in the interview is the sort of communication issues that got this person into trouble, you need to know that so you can evaluate how likely it is that you're communication style would be compatible. Some senior managers will say "get it done" and some will be very prescriptive about how (aka micromanaging) and some will be open to feedback and others will consider feedback insubordination.
Understand what they expect (both things they expect someone to do, and things they are expected NOT to do in that role) and how they evaluate what they see. Then ask yourself if you feel like you can live in that system or not.