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How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

nytimes.com

71–80 of 145 posts

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#71

I'm a little amazed at the tone of this article. People rent a home, and then exploit the democratic process in a beggar-thy-potential-neighbors strategy. They use things like rent control and other anti-migrant policies (e.g. anti-Google bus policies in SF, anti-Hijab laws in France) to enrich themselves at the expense of others. Because her wealthy uncles lost their job, and had a small drop in their standard of li…

> Elite institutions - think of banking or tech - tend to be truly global enterprises, open to anyone who can demonstrate the requisite ability. So you're saying that people of color and women just aren't fit to rule the world? The ethnic and gender distribution among elite managers etc. is certainly not representative.

The top 5 tech companies according to a quick Google search -> fortune article are apple, HP, IBM, Amazon and Microsoft. 2 CEOs are people of color (bezos and nacelle) one is gay and one a woman.

It's true that Asians are overrepresented in tech. I believe this is, in fact, because more Asians are fit for the job. Do you disagree? Why do you think Asians are overrepresented, and what do you think should be done about it?

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#72
post #60

I may be reading this too late at night, but the theory seems to be that our benevolent, perfectly logical Ivy League-educated overlords regrettably have to break a few eggs to make a delicious omelette of economic prosperity for all, and those broken eggs are enough to make people throw up their hands and vote for Trump/Brexit/whatever just for a chance to cling to the present, the good old days, at the expense of t…

Pretty much this. And that's the issue with globalisation; it's great for those at the top, decent for those at the very bottom and often rather awful for those in the middle. The votes for Brexit, Trump, various far left and right wing parties, etc are a way of saying "let's watch the elite's world and system collapse on itself". They've seen how little any of this is doing for them as workers, and how every system…

> are a way of saying "let's watch the elite's world and system collapse on itself"

I don't think people want to replace the elites with void. Maybe that's the case for nihilistic, fringe far-right or far-left parties. But when majorities or near majorities are voting for Trump or Brexit, they want to replace the elites with something else`.

It's funny to watch the elites suddenly renouncing democracy because she stopped serving their purposes (It was quite a relevation to watch reddit go full-on military-dictatorship this past week, but hey reddit is not reality).

Democracy is a very adaptive concept and there is a saying that there are no dead ends with it.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both really. For places like Middlesborough or Burnley they're a shadow of their former 80s selves. Austerity there is just a case of rubbing salt into the still open wound.

Early in my career I regularly visited towns like Middlesborough and Burnley, installing IT systems. There was a lot of unskilled and semi-skilled work available at those businesses that has either been shipped out to China or automated away. Those jobs aren't coming back, whether we are in the EU or not.

No they're not.

But you have to consider recent history to understand life for people there. It's not just "stupid bloody Northerners voting for Brexit" because they don't understand the world has moved on.

Many once prosperous, vibrant, manufacturing towns were decimated under Thatcher. The councils didn't have two brass Farthings to rub together (both from the loss of business and also ever increasing centralism, especially of funding). The regional redevelopment agencies (as I think they were called) managed to create a few call centre jobs and poorly draft some folks' CVs. Heseltine wanted properly funded development agencies, similar to the old New Town corporations, with enough power to make decisions and achieve things, Howe (I think) didn't want to spend the brass. If memory serves, Heseltine was able to make some significant difference in Liverpool (mainly because of the recent Toxteth riots) and Manchester. He wanted to cover all the affected towns but wasn't permitted both from a financial point of view, and it was interventionist which went against the religion of Thatcherism/Reaganism.

Then came large, poorly integrated, immigrant communities, actively placed there by one government or another (I forget if it was mostly Tory or Labour). There was tension, mainly stemming from the pre-existing lack of opportunity. Little wonder there were race riots in some of these towns a decade later.

Then came New Labour, full of promises. No regional redevelopment, so sorely needed for well over a decade. More London-centric than even the Tories which defied belief. More large infrastructure projects, but none within 100 miles. If London wanted the tube rails gold plated you'd believe it was more likely to be approved than development spending in Sheffield or Truro.

Children of the eighties grew up with no working parent as role-model. Opportunities heavily curtailed from lack of money, be that nutritionally, books in the house, or ability to go to university. It's little wonder many became disaffected and disenfranchised.

The three bed family semi might sell for £80k or £120k, if it sells, but want to relocate to MK or London or anywhere with some life chances? Can't even afford a shared shed in such places, let alone relocate a family. Hell, the differentials got so large they can't even afford to relocat to Manchester or Leeds

So along come the blatant lies of Johnson and Farage: "Take back control of your lives", "£350m a week on the NHS", "xx,000 immigrants a year taking your jobs". It was an easy sell after 30 years of bull in the media about stupid EU regulations, straight bananas, EU super state and what have you.

As another commenter insightfully pointed out receiving EU redevelopment funds is a reliable indicator of neglect by successive governments. That those places most heavily voted leave is ironic, but a reliable indicator of how neglected they feel by all in power for the last 40 years.

There's no point pointing out they were backing not just the wrong horse, but the wrong race. Tell that to Farage and co selling a vision they neither cared about or had any intention of delivering. Look at their surprise the morning after when they won. Not a damn lying one of them even smiled. About time the ASA covered political messages too.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with integration? You clearly think it's bad but don't say why. Ah, downvote me for replying with a question. Mature. I guess you don't have a reason that doesn't boil down to "I don't want foreigners next door"?

Downvote wasn't mine. I upvoted you to cancel it out. But thanks for dishonestly implying I'm racist (thereby proving my point), when my entire comment was on economic issues. By integration I mean political integration. I think very large states have scale problems, large democracies in particular. (Look at India or the US). You either end up with populist parties who need to appeal to the lowest common denominator…

Sorry, it just pissed me off almightily that I got downmodded for asking a question, so went for plan b: bait.

Those "ancient nations" are mostly less than a century old. Europe has been a superstate several times previously, although it admittedly hasn't lasted under political or religious hegemony.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#75
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be the dream of owners of property in London but not those that rent there.

If you work in London at all, you get trickle down from the financial services sector. People who work in finance drink in your coffee shop, eat in your restaurant, ride in your bus or taxi, buy things in your shop. Look at what happened in 2008. Finance caught a cold and the entire global economy including Britain fell flat on it's back. Brexit has the potential to do far more damage over a much longer period of tim…

And those same people leech off the public purse in order to bail themselves out of their greedy, malicious fuck ups that end up ruining economies and destroying lives.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#76

I'm pro-economic liberty and voted for Brexit. Every analysis like this has tunnel vision: yes, the free trade opened up by the EU brought prosperity to an entire continent. Had we been voting for the 1970s era EEC, I'd have gladly voted Remain. But in 40 years the EEC has evolved into the EU, with a constitution, a parliament, a president, a national anthem, a flag, supreme law-making powers and a currency. Maybe th…

> Maybe the populations of France, Spain, Italy et al will accept that they can't fund welfare states by borrowing in perpetuity and stop voting in radical left-wing governments.

Spain has never had a left-wing government, let alone radical left. Since democracy, we have had 4 centre-right legislatures and 6 centre-left, last of which was in 2008, with the current election deadlock still resulting in a majority of centre-right votes.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#77

I'm a little amazed at the tone of this article. People rent a home, and then exploit the democratic process in a beggar-thy-potential-neighbors strategy. They use things like rent control and other anti-migrant policies (e.g. anti-Google bus policies in SF, anti-Hijab laws in France) to enrich themselves at the expense of others. Because her wealthy uncles lost their job, and had a small drop in their standard of li…

"Tech bros" don't like their jobs outsourced to India. That's comparable to your examples, yet they are mostly upper class. In addition, people are concerned about things that effect themselves . The elites don't care about the neighborhoods they don't live in, or the jobs they don't have to compete for. But they do care about profit, and about getting richer. In all of the examples you gave, that motivation would wo…

I've never actually met a tech bro who objected except on HN. Everyone I've met has been fine with economic competition from people unlike them. But I could be wrong - do you have evidence that tech is even remotely as protectionist as the trump/Bernie voting masses?

The local elites don't need to compete for CEO jobs with Satya Nadella or Sunder Pichai? That's news to me.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with integration? You clearly think it's bad but don't say why. Ah, downvote me for replying with a question. Mature. I guess you don't have a reason that doesn't boil down to "I don't want foreigners next door"?

Downvote wasn't mine. I upvoted you to cancel it out. But thanks for dishonestly implying I'm racist (thereby proving my point), when my entire comment was on economic issues. By integration I mean political integration. I think very large states have scale problems, large democracies in particular. (Look at India or the US). You either end up with populist parties who need to appeal to the lowest common denominator…

Yes. It's certainly the case that many Brexiter voters voted that way for reasons that bordered on or went over the line to be racist--not that a desire to place controls on immigration is inherently racist.

That said, if I had been voting (I'm a US citizen) I would almost certainly have voted remain in part because pulling out of the existing union is going to be a mess. And because the UK is already outside of important parts of EU-related structure such as the Euro. But I would have done so in spite of many of the aspirations to create a European super-state that many in Brussels share.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#79
post #6

I don't think the distinguishing characteristic of bankers is their desire for economic efficiency. It's their desire for self-enrichment. Maybe the author doesn't mean actual bankers , but is instead referring to central bankers, in which case I'd argue that the meager GDP growth achieved from an unprecedented expansion of central banking assets has been anything but efficient. Regardless, the fact that the author c…

I don't think the average banker has a greater desire for self-enrichment than say, the average lawyer or the average sales manager. And anyway, there's nothing wrong with a certain amount of greediness in a capitalist system, this is what drives innovation and efficiency. The problem with banking has been that the system is broken. Unlike other companies, mismanaged banks cannot go bankrupt because they drag the ent…

> Unlike other companies, mismanaged banks cannot go bankrupt because they drag the entire system with them.

Of course they can, we just have to be willing to let them in order to see the fundamental flaws in the system as it is.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#80

I'm pro-economic liberty and voted for Brexit. Every analysis like this has tunnel vision: yes, the free trade opened up by the EU brought prosperity to an entire continent. Had we been voting for the 1970s era EEC, I'd have gladly voted Remain. But in 40 years the EEC has evolved into the EU, with a constitution, a parliament, a president, a national anthem, a flag, supreme law-making powers and a currency. Maybe th…

You make it sound as if the UK was not in the EU all these years. You had bargaining and Veto powers to steer the EU to your direction, but i can't remember when you did so. Probably that's the reason why most EU citizens are indifferently watching you leave.
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