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Lightning Network: Scalable, Instant Bitcoin/Blockchain Transactions

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Re: Lightning Network: Scalable, Instant Bitcoin/Blockchain Transactions

#71

Post by wellthissukz »

forgotpwtomain wrote: post #21
ptokb3 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are implementing Lightning, paid by Blockstream but Blockstream has nothing to do with it? Maybe you're just really funny and they are paying you for your incredible sense of humor.

Supposing this is really Rusty Russell [0], I would encourage some hesitation before you imply that they are involved in advocating for less than savory things. Rusty Russell has done a lot of great work on Linux (the TCP stack in particular) and you've probably used some of his work. For all I know, Russell might be deluded and Blockstream might be an evil brain-washing machine, but if Russell was in it for the mone…

Perfect example of appeal to authority.

BlockstreamCore shills can do nothing else.

Re: Lightning Network: Scalable, Instant Bitcoin/Blockchain Transactions

#72

Post by 7373737373 »

Similar work is going on in the Ethereum space, both with microtransactions and more generalized state channels for arbitrary computation and data distribution (see Raiden/Truebit/Swarm). But the problem remains the same: finding protocols that have the right (or even adjustable) centralisation/efficiency/privacy/risk/cost tradeoff. Another question is whether these systems will become purely financially incentivised or implement some form of social routing. While the trust conferred to the intermediaries can be quite low, some cooperation is still necessary and even in an initially free market, economies of scale could result in some actors having control over the entire system. Routing still requires consensus, but this time it's local.

Re: Lightning Network: Scalable, Instant Bitcoin/Blockchain Transactions

#73

Post by bedeho »

josephpoon wrote: post #47
MichaelGG wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin doesn't offer chargebacks though, and nor do any of the exchanges. I think GP's point is that Linden money is equivalent to BTC, just centralized. And they can send small amounts of money. If you mean Linden would have issues with chargebacks for people exchanging real money -- why wouldn't any BTC exchange have the same problem? It seems unlikely you'll be able to buy $0.01 of BTC. In fact, any centralize sy…

The presumption would be the underwriting risk is batched and pushed to one point (the exchange point). It's economically feasible to underwrite a single transaction for hundreds of dollars to buy Bitcoin (exchanges doing AML/KYC). It's much more uneconomical to underwrite a $0.001 payment -- as a result building a real marketplace for this becomes difficult even if there would be a lot of users.

I don´t get this answer. Linden needs not underwrite any micropayment inside it´s silo?

The only utility in LN is hopefully retaining decentralized properties of bitcoin. PokerStars, Linden & WoW have supported micropayments for a long time?

Im not sure why any of these services could not grow 10x and still function internally? They are already servicing tens of millions.

Re: Lightning Network: Scalable, Instant Bitcoin/Blockchain Transactions

#74

Post by nullc »

7373737373 wrote: post #72

Similar work is going on in the Ethereum space, both with microtransactions and more generalized state channels for arbitrary computation and data distribution (see Raiden/Truebit/Swarm). But the problem remains the same: finding protocols that have the right (or even adjustable) centralisation/efficiency/privacy/risk/cost tradeoff. Another question is whether these systems will become purely financially incentivised…

Whats the challenge for ethereum? If the smart contracts don't work out like you hoped, you just get the people running it to adjust the ledger for you.

(Or do they only do that when they personally lose out?)

Re: Lightning Network: Scalable, Instant Bitcoin/Blockchain Transactions

#75

Post by sneak »

um_ya wrote: post #42
ptokb3 wrote: post #12

-Blockstream Playbook- Step 1: Buy off all of the top developers of open-source project. Check. Step 2: Refuse to support/fix basic network operations so that transactions stop confirming just as the network needs to grow. Check. Step 3: Create a 2nd-layer solution for growth that allows the company to siphon Billions of dollars over many years. Check. Step 4: Censor any forum where people alert others about secret g…

You're an idiot. If you actually understood how lightning network works, you would understand what a HUGE leap this is for bitcoin. This solves the problem of miners downloading and transferring too much data, it solves the zero confirmation problem, it solves the micropayment problems, and it solves the scale-ability problem... All this, just by using bitcoin timelocks and transaction channels. It's a pretty cool tr…

It's difficult to convince people with facts when their mind is already made up.

Re: Lightning Network: Scalable, Instant Bitcoin/Blockchain Transactions

#76

Post by akkad3a »

wellthissukz wrote: post #70
nullc wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Step 1: Buy off We founded the company. > all of the top developers A couple people out of a community of around 50-200 depending on the phase of the moon. > Step 2: Refuse to support/fix basic network operations Uh. You know that Bitcoin is a decenteralized system that no one controls; right? We do a lot of fixes, but we're not your personal code monkies. There is a LOT going on in Bitcoin, and it's working pretty…

Again, these are lies from Gregory Maxwell (Blockstream CTO). Please provide details on funding. Specifically, how much AXA paid? "A couple people out of a community of around 50-200 depending on the phase of the moon." Again a lie. The top Core devs are Blockstream employees. Blockstream has created a toxic environment and a huge ivory tower. "Uh. You know that Bitcoin is a decenteralized system that no one controls…

Personal attacks and conspiracy theories really need to stop.

Re: Lightning Network: Scalable, Instant Bitcoin/Blockchain Transactions

#77

Post by 7373737373 »

nullc wrote: post #74
7373737373 wrote: post #72

Similar work is going on in the Ethereum space, both with microtransactions and more generalized state channels for arbitrary computation and data distribution (see Raiden/Truebit/Swarm). But the problem remains the same: finding protocols that have the right (or even adjustable) centralisation/efficiency/privacy/risk/cost tradeoff. Another question is whether these systems will become purely financially incentivised…

Whats the challenge for ethereum? If the smart contracts don't work out like you hoped, you just get the people running it to adjust the ledger for you. (Or do they only do that when they personally lose out?)

The DAO debacle showed that regardless of the system - even Blockchains - there is no cloud, there are only other people's computers. All systems are inherently influenced by the people behind it, even if they try to ignore or abstract that fact away. There is no perfect neutrality, in fact, Blockchains with economic consensus (PoW/PoS) set a price for it.

In addition to what I described above, there are more open questions, ranging from the best network topology to the different patterns of interactions and how they can be optimized. I'm becoming convinced that the best approach would not only allow for one paradigm, but for a range of protocols with different properties (e.g. that work in offline environments) - logical decentralisation. Any kind of maximalism for a single currency and network instance isn't applicable to this.

Re: Lightning Network: Scalable, Instant Bitcoin/Blockchain Transactions

#78

Post by chx »

josephpoon wrote: post #32

For the HN crowd passing by, here's why this stuff could be interesting to you. It's not possible to do extremely small micropayments on bitcoin directly as people use it today. Bitcoin's made a lot of promises around micropayments, but doing it in an economical way has tradeoffs, especially if you're talking about millions to billions of transactions per second. In fact it's not possible to extremely small micropaym…

Except you can't send $0.001 because you'd need to exchange your actual money to bitcoins first and the receiver would need to exchange it back. OK, perhaps the receiver would only transact once there's a "lot" of $0.001s came in.

Re: Lightning Network: Scalable, Instant Bitcoin/Blockchain Transactions

#79

Post by bachback »

josephpoon wrote: post #44
sanswork wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry I think you'll have to dumb it down for me. Say Bob says I want my $10 to stick on OKCoin now. He broadcasts that he wants to close the channels for all those thousands of people now? Doesn't that mean the transactions go through on the actual network costing him ~$0.05 for each $0.01? Or am I understanding settlement completely wrong?

Let's say you're Alice. You have a channel open with Bob. Bob is connected to Carol (OKPay). You update your channel to tell Bob, I will pay you conditional upon a proof that you paid Carol. Bob pays Carol and provides proof. If Bob didn't provide proof after an agreed timeframe, this gets cancelled. There can be an arbitrary number of people between you and Bob (7-degrees of Kevin Bacon, but probably don't go too hi…

Bitcoin works based on incentives. There is no reason to go off-chain if you're not getting paid. And OKPay is not an end-node in any system. What you "really" want is to be able to send all assets in the system integrating banks. So the supernodes will be banks, i.e. large liquidity providers with a legal framework. LN is technically interesting, but there is no plausible scenario to make it work IMO. And if, you'd be way better off with redesigning Bitcoin and getting rid of some major drawbacks there.

Re: Lightning Network: Scalable, Instant Bitcoin/Blockchain Transactions

#80

Post by bachback »

jswny wrote: post #11

I'm still not sure how I feel about implementing a layer over the Bitcoin network like this instead of just fixing the inherent flaws with the protocol. Especially when said network is being pushed by the company Blockstream which is known for shady practices.

Yes. The actual competition takes place in the market. If you have a really good idea - make a new Coin or join any of the 100's out there.
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