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The most alienating thing that happened to me as a female engineer

niniane.blogspot.com

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Re: The most alienating thing that happened to me as a female engineer

#71

Post by emsy »

elevenfist wrote: post #45
asQuirreL wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like it is a diversity issue, albeit not of the usual kind, and it is not exclusive to groups whose identity is strongly linked to gender. All groups will try and preserve their own identity, because if they don't, they stop existing. I'm merely making an observation here, not condoning the actions of groups. This kind of behaviour may seem harmless in some situations, but then also fuels some of the worst ins…

This has nothing to do with identity, it's just common bullying. I imagine the thought process may be something like "We're the majority, we don't care, so we're not going to share the tv. "

From that perspective, democracy is bullying.

Re: The most alienating thing that happened to me as a female engineer

#72

Post by adwn »

coroutines wrote: post #36
adwn wrote: post #19

To summarize: Most of the team wants to watch progam A; watching program A during dinner is an established team ritual; author wants to change channel to program B, which is "met with incredulity and laughter". Some time later, program B is running; team members come in and want to change the channel to program A. And that latter event is the most alienating during her time at Microsoft. Wat. It gets better: Because…

I think she blogged about this because it's a very small incident, but it had a very powerful effect on her. I worked at a womens' clothing store for a while and I often felt like my opinion wasn't valued. The staff was mostly made up of women and I was treated inappropriately in the form of sexual harassment and unprofessional workplace conversations. I tried my best to keep out of it but I must admit I made mistake…

> I think she blogged about this because it's a very small incident, but it had a very powerful effect on her.

If it's a very small incident, why is it such a big deal for her? Especially compared to the real harrassment by her mentor in the car?

> Over time this began to really bother me simply because of how small and benign it should have been.

Well, did you ask your coworker why she did that? Being an adult also means standing up for yourself (it doesn't have to be overly confrontational, just ask politely), especially since it apparently was just a single person, not bullying by your entire team.

Re: The most alienating thing that happened to me as a female engineer

#73

Post by cathartes »

golergka wrote: post #41
EliRivers wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have misrepresented the case, although I do agree that it's not overtly a male/female thing. People are in a shared TV-viewing area. There is something being shown on TV. New person enters and decides to change the channel without asking. This is the action of a total dickhead. I don't care what the established ritual is. If a group of people are clearly watching something else (and they must be, because here the…

But the story doesn't tell us that anyone was actually watching Friends at the moment.

But she was explicit in saying no one even asked if anyone was watching. Instead, each person in succession walked in, recoiled in horror, and decided to flip the channel without a word. One person doing this is unexceptional. Two? Less than chance, but possibly coincidence. Three or more, however, suggests a gestalt of in-group sports dickery existed around her.

Re: The most alienating thing that happened to me as a female engineer

#74

Post by geon »

zasz wrote: post #26
adwn wrote: post #19

To summarize: Most of the team wants to watch progam A; watching program A during dinner is an established team ritual; author wants to change channel to program B, which is "met with incredulity and laughter". Some time later, program B is running; team members come in and want to change the channel to program A. And that latter event is the most alienating during her time at Microsoft. Wat. It gets better: Because…

The implication is that the rest of the team felt comfortable enough in that environment that they could change the channel without even having to ask, while OP was loudly ridiculed for wanting to change the channel in a more polite way. The rest of the team felt comfortable with the team dynamic in a way that OP did not, and by ridiculing her, they made it clear that her desires were less important than theirs, thus…

> while OP was loudly ridiculed for wanting to change the channel in a more polite way

No. OP wanted to change the channel away from THE established channel.

Had OP been a male, and a woman changed the channel back to baseball, the situation would have been the same.

Re: The most alienating thing that happened to me as a female engineer

#75

Post by bloaf »

zasz wrote: post #26
adwn wrote: post #19

To summarize: Most of the team wants to watch progam A; watching program A during dinner is an established team ritual; author wants to change channel to program B, which is "met with incredulity and laughter". Some time later, program B is running; team members come in and want to change the channel to program A. And that latter event is the most alienating during her time at Microsoft. Wat. It gets better: Because…

The implication is that the rest of the team felt comfortable enough in that environment that they could change the channel without even having to ask, while OP was loudly ridiculed for wanting to change the channel in a more polite way. The rest of the team felt comfortable with the team dynamic in a way that OP did not, and by ridiculing her, they made it clear that her desires were less important than theirs, thus…

Say you were on a baseball team for a couple of years. After every game, your team always goes out to Bob's Pretty Good Pizza for beers. What do you think would happen if you one day suggested that instead of Bob's, the team should go to Carl's Seafood Shack?

You'd probably get laughed at.

It wouldn't be because people thought seafood was dumb. It wouldn't be because you looked funny, or were female, or played poorly that day. It would be because you misunderstood why the team went to Bob's week after week. The team doesn't go to Bob's because they've got a taste for pizza, they go to Bob's because they want a comfortable routine, shared experiences, and customs to uniquely identify their group.

The suggestion of giving those comforts up because you had a taste for fish sticks instead of pepperoni would be funny to the people who really appreciate them.

And so it goes with baseball on the TV.

Re: The most alienating thing that happened to me as a female engineer

#76

Post by geon »

zasz wrote: post #52
Jommi wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, it has more to do with team dynamics and authority levels than anything related to sexism. It's a simple fact that usually in groups the majority rules. The majority wanted to watch baseball, not Friends.

Sure, but you can be a majority that's a tyranny, or a majority that occasionally is more accommodating.

Sure. Neither one is about sexism, though.

Re: The most alienating thing that happened to me as a female engineer

#77

Post by Swizec »

patates wrote: post #64
Swizec wrote: post #18

> If I had walked in, and baseball was showing on the television, it would be completely unthinkable for me to grab the remote and change it to Friends. Why? I wonder if she ever tried, or just assumed it was unthinkable. I suspect it was less unthinkable than she thinks it was. From the rest of the story, it sounds like not only was it thinkable for people to try to change the channel, it was expected even. Otherwis…

> Assert dominance IMO this is discrimination. You may get away with suggesting a specific role, maybe a negotiator, would need to have/develop this ability. As a very accepting and peaceful guy, I really feel bad (insecure, even) when people assert that I need to be dominant to be successful. BTW, I'm not trying to explain why you are being down-voted as I didn't, wouldn't (and also can't) down-vote you.

It's tongue-in-cheek.

You don't have to be dominant to be successful. But you can't be a pushover.

If something bothers you, you have to speak up. Immediately and decisively. The first time it happens. Not when it becomes the established social norm.

If you speak up, normal mature people will say something like "Oh, sorry. I didn't realize that bothered you. I'll be more careful.". They might push back, if they think you're pushing too far or too hard because of whatever pre-existing beliefs.

But it's a dynamic balance. Both sides have to push and pull. Without active participation from everyone, teams become imbalanced and less effective.

Re: The most alienating thing that happened to me as a female engineer

#78

Post by patates »

Swizec wrote: post #77
patates wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Assert dominance IMO this is discrimination. You may get away with suggesting a specific role, maybe a negotiator, would need to have/develop this ability. As a very accepting and peaceful guy, I really feel bad (insecure, even) when people assert that I need to be dominant to be successful. BTW, I'm not trying to explain why you are being down-voted as I didn't, wouldn't (and also can't) down-vote you.

It's tongue-in-cheek. You don't have to be dominant to be successful. But you can't be a pushover. If something bothers you, you have to speak up. Immediately and decisively. The first time it happens. Not when it becomes the established social norm. If you speak up, normal mature people will say something like "Oh, sorry. I didn't realize that bothered you. I'll be more careful.". They might push back, if they think…

This makes much more sense, thank you for your explanation.

Re: The most alienating thing that happened to me as a female engineer

#79

Post by marincounty »

I think the main problem is the use of Friends as an example of alienation? To most Americans watching that show was like dripping hot wax into the ear canal.

I understand reruns are popular in other countries. I kinda get it. No one on the show was hungry, and their biggest problem was whom to love. (That show was the first show, I recall, that treated Homelessness with an air of frivolity? I grew up in an era where you did not make fun of homelessness in any fashion. You never used it as a funny sitcom line. You just never joked about it. That America is Gone.)

That's said, real harrasement/alienation is aweful.

These examples do not fit my definition of alienation.

As to the lack of female tees. Most guys are stupid when it comes to female sizes. Plus, if the buyer of the tee shirts bought anything snug fitting, or tailored towards a female physique; they might be accused of being a creep, perverted, or worse. Personally, I never liked wearing clothes I didn't buy. Wearin those stupid corporate advertisements always rubbed me the wrong way. I would usually slip them off when it was safe--kinda like my Scouts uniform.

Re: The most alienating thing that happened to me as a female engineer

#80

Post by Jommi »

zasz wrote: post #52
Jommi wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, it has more to do with team dynamics and authority levels than anything related to sexism. It's a simple fact that usually in groups the majority rules. The majority wanted to watch baseball, not Friends.

Sure, but you can be a majority that's a tyranny, or a majority that occasionally is more accommodating.

Yup, and it sucks and I would personally not be part of that kind of circle. Ofcourse in a work environment this is hard to avoid. That's why "Culture fit" is stressed so much in recruiting.
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