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Announcing Google Research, Europe

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Re: Announcing Google Research, Europe

#71

Post by saiya-jin »

nuschk wrote: post #26
tomp wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd guess the main reason is low tax on salaries, and less competition from finance than e.g. London.

Well, finance takes also a large chunk of Switzerland's GDP and thus is scooping up many engineers as well. Maybe it's not as pronounced as in London, but it certainly isn't very easy to hire good engineers here because of all the banks and hedge funds. I think google came to Zurich because of EPFL/ETH, the very high living standard and most of all the rather liberal labor law. It's very easy to fire someone in Switz…

Finance is 12% of Swiss GDP last time I checked. This country has this image of banking powerhouse, but in reality small/medium companies and tourism contribute much more.

healthier economical setup I must say. also, if they decide to trash banks with some end-of-data-privacy law (and it will eventually come, as for US persons), it won't be such a disaster for their economy.

Re: Announcing Google Research, Europe

#72

Post by saiya-jin »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #28
chmars wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no low tax on salaries, that is a myth … and there is a lot of additional mandatory fees in addition to direct salary tax. Switzerland is only a tax haven for a very small target group – and someone has pay for these tax privileges, i.e., salary earners in the private sector.

Swiss income tax IS low, relatively. But if you want to actually buy something....

depending on canton/commune of residence, and income, it can be relatively small. I would call it medium taxation though, at least for common folks. definitely not a tax haven though.

VAT is small (8% or 2.5% on essentials), but prices/fees are very high to begin with.

Re: Announcing Google Research, Europe

#73

Post by saiya-jin »

delroth wrote: post #61
spacecowboy_lon wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why would they do that when they can get their pick of european talent and pay them 50% less than they would in SV

50% less than SV in Zürich? You're greatly mistaken. Last I checked I'm paid more here than what I would get if I were to do the same job in Mountain View.

for me it's 1:1, depends on after-tax money (which is real salary, anything else are just some imaginary numbers). now go out for a dinner, go get car repaired, try to buy house in countryside and we can talk about comparable

Re: Announcing Google Research, Europe

#74

Post by dharma1 »

Maro wrote: post #63
dharma1 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would be great if the next Google/Facebook/Microsoft was European and HQ'd in Europe, but it's hard to see that. ML anecdotes - Schmidhuber makes a point of how LSTM was developed on European taxpayer's dime. Backpropagation was invented by Esko Linnainmaa (a Finnish researcher) in the 70s. Universities or startups can't compete with finance/Google/FB level compensation, so that's where a lot of the bright minds go.

I also used to think that, and in the long-term I agree, and I have (i) done a startup in Europe (failed for lacking of funding) (ii) worked for a European startup (Prezi). But right now I work for Facebook (in London), and this is a good thing. You can go to these places and learn a lot, a lot more than what you can figure out on your own with your friends sitting in a garage or at one of the moderately successful E…

I agree it's a good learning opportunity for individuals, but I still hope Europe will be able to produce new large, successful tech companies in the future. Right now a lot of the value is captured by US companies

Re: Announcing Google Research, Europe

#75

Post by SmellTheGlove »

dominotw wrote: post #68

>This really makes me consider moving my family to Zurich. If you immigrate to America you can become an American. You can shop till you drop, eat mc donlads, celebrate 4th of july and call yourself an american. This can not be said for any other country. In Germany you will always be an "immigrant", maybe if your kids are white and young enough to pick up the language maybe they can become invisible. But for anyone…

Very good point. I'm born in the US from an immigrant family, grew up here and all, but have US and Italian citizenship. I go to Italy pretty regularly and it's debatable whether most there actually consider me Italian, because I grew up in a different culture. That view might not even change if I were to go live there indefinitely. And to some extent I agree, or at least can see where that comes from. And I look like anyone else over there, speak a couple of dialects in addition to standard italian, etc. Now it doesn't mean you're necessarily treated poorly, but your cultural identity will always be something else. It's not as though no one will talk to you or be your friend. but it's different than the US where you can show up, declare yourself American, and pretty much have it stick.

Re: Announcing Google Research, Europe

#76

Post by jpatokal »

dominotw wrote: post #68

>This really makes me consider moving my family to Zurich. If you immigrate to America you can become an American. You can shop till you drop, eat mc donlads, celebrate 4th of july and call yourself an american. This can not be said for any other country. In Germany you will always be an "immigrant", maybe if your kids are white and young enough to pick up the language maybe they can become invisible. But for anyone…

"Any"? Try telling that to (say) Canadians, Australians, South Africans, Singaporeans...

Re: Announcing Google Research, Europe

#77

Post by dav-id »

zerr wrote: post #64
Roritharr wrote: post #3

This really makes me consider moving my family to Zurich. Looking back at growing up in Germany/Europe made me really feel disadvantaged compared to people growing up in more tech friendly environments. I would want my child to grow up somewhere where technology is not overwhelmingly debated about in a negative light. So much good stuff is coming out of ETH that it really seems to be a place where people talk more en…

Not at all. Germany is one of the most tech/dev friendly country, especially if you are outside web dev. I see a lot of C++ engineering opportunities there. If only it was an English speaking country, and they had a sun... (It's a shame that we don't have a good English speaking country in whole Europe...) ;)

I hear the English can speak English quite well

Re: Announcing Google Research, Europe

#78

Post by jpatokal »

saiya-jin wrote: post #73
delroth wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

50% less than SV in Zürich? You're greatly mistaken. Last I checked I'm paid more here than what I would get if I were to do the same job in Mountain View.

for me it's 1:1, depends on after-tax money (which is real salary, anything else are just some imaginary numbers). now go out for a dinner, go get car repaired, try to buy house in countryside and we can talk about comparable

Have you looked at housing prices anywhere near Silicon Valley recently?

Re: Announcing Google Research, Europe

#79

Post by [deleted] »

Maro wrote: post #63
dharma1 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would be great if the next Google/Facebook/Microsoft was European and HQ'd in Europe, but it's hard to see that. ML anecdotes - Schmidhuber makes a point of how LSTM was developed on European taxpayer's dime. Backpropagation was invented by Esko Linnainmaa (a Finnish researcher) in the 70s. Universities or startups can't compete with finance/Google/FB level compensation, so that's where a lot of the bright minds go.

I also used to think that, and in the long-term I agree, and I have (i) done a startup in Europe (failed for lacking of funding) (ii) worked for a European startup (Prezi). But right now I work for Facebook (in London), and this is a good thing. You can go to these places and learn a lot, a lot more than what you can figure out on your own with your friends sitting in a garage or at one of the moderately successful E…

[deleted]

Re: Announcing Google Research, Europe

#80

Post by f_allwein »

1010310201 wrote: post #59
Roritharr wrote: post #3

This really makes me consider moving my family to Zurich. Looking back at growing up in Germany/Europe made me really feel disadvantaged compared to people growing up in more tech friendly environments. I would want my child to grow up somewhere where technology is not overwhelmingly debated about in a negative light. So much good stuff is coming out of ETH that it really seems to be a place where people talk more en…

It is really a stretch to claim that Germany isn't tech friendly. It isn't pseudo-tech friendly, i.e. Germans have the obnoxious habit of separating hype from tech. The only area where I'd agree is nuclear power, which regrettably doesn't have wide acceptance.

But that's only because nuclear power uses non-renewable raw materials, creates waste products that are dangerous for tens of thousands of years and occasionally leads to catastrophic accidents.
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