Jacob Appelbaum’s response to accusations by the Tor community • Hacker News Board

Re: Jacob Appelbaum’s response to accusations by the Tor community

#71

Post by mwfunk » Mon, Jun 06, 2016, 10:02 PM UTC

powera wrote: post #51

nabla9 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At least that's my impression from the outside. It has no value. We who are outsiders in the drama can't contribute and our impressions can be false. Some of use are just drawn into the drama and can't avoid taking sides. Creating impressions is how internet drama works.

If outsiders can't contribute, why are you commenting on it (twice!) here?

Fine, contributing in the form of saying "we can't contribute here" is the one way in which we can contribute. Happy? That seems pretty obvious, no need to call people out for supposed double standards.

Re: Jacob Appelbaum’s response to accusations by the Tor community

#72

Post by acqq » Mon, Jun 06, 2016, 10:03 PM UTC

SeanLuke wrote: post #63

powera wrote: post #54

This Medium post summarizes my take on this statement better than I can. TLDR "I can’t directly say the allegations are false." https://medium.com/@frabyn/decoding-jake-appelbaum-9fa75d060...

I don't understand that one. Does @frabyn not know that spurious means false?

> Does @frabyn not know that spurious means false?

Does 'SeanLuke not know the following definitions of spurious?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spurious

"of a deceitful nature or quality"

"not genuine, sincere, or authentic"

So Appelbaum can claim that he didn't exactly mean "false" (in a sense of "never happened") but "not sincere" (as in, "somebody instructed those people to tell that now, you know, the nasty governments that are after me") if presented with the proofs later.

In short, read carefully yourself, take the dictionary and consider what was actually written and what wasn't. My impression, Franklin Bynum correctly recognized one weasel word

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word

Re: Jacob Appelbaum’s response to accusations by the Tor community

#73

Post by DasIch » Mon, Jun 06, 2016, 10:07 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #57

Sanddancer wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reporting it to the police is an amazingly stressful process that requires you to relive it again and again, being tried in the public eye, opening yourself up to claims of being a slut, etc. Just being able to admit you were raped is a strength a lot of victims don't have.

> opening yourself up to claims of being a slut JA lives in Germany. German cops may be total assholes regarding anti-fascist activism, but they take rape very, very seriously.

The problem is that the law regarding rape in Germany is awful. Lack of consent alone is not sufficient for something to be considered rape in Germany.

In fact there is currently a fairly noteworthy case ongoing in Germany about a Gina-Lisa Lohfink. She's currently trying to repeal a court decision forcing her to pay money to her rapist. The rapist was considered innocent despite clear video evidence because she didn't use force to defend herself and there was no evidence of her being drugged (although the video clearly shows her being totally out of it).

If you're a victim of rape in Germany, you really don't want to go to the police unless you're absolutely sure you fit all the boxes and you definitely don't want to call out a rapist under your real name.

Re: Jacob Appelbaum’s response to accusations by the Tor community

#74

Post by nickpsecurity » Mon, Jun 06, 2016, 10:11 PM UTC

Chris2048 wrote: post #69

geofft wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any scenario could be possible, from personal revenge to a smear campaign by an intelligence agency. It's also worth being aware of the possibility that Jacob Appelbaum is himself an agent of an intelligence agency (either a plant, or someone turned informant once they realized they could blackmail him and that a creep is a useful informant), and his behavior is a way to maintain his power and in turn the intellige…

While conspiracy theory is a risky proposition, in this case the agencies involved are known for such things. COINTELPRO, prism etc, so it's no entirely implausible to raise such concerns.

His tactics have been to further publicize things they rely on while also pissing off community members to point that subversion is less likely. I'd say he's doing opposite of what CIA or FBI would want him to do. Whereas, Tor is actually funded by an organization connected to CIA propaganda groups and is used by military intelligence.

One is working for spooks, whether harmlessly or not. It's just not Jake that's the one. Strange the conspiracy theories focus on him instead of Tor.

Re: Jacob Appelbaum’s response to accusations by the Tor community

#75

Post by hackuser » Mon, Jun 06, 2016, 10:12 PM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #66

Chris2048 wrote: post #58

> It's rarer than most people think that accusations of sexual abuse are falsely raised How do you determine this?

According to this essay, about 3% of men will get falsely accused of rape in their lifetime: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/17/lies-damned-lies-and-so... The real number is impossible to determine, but is uncomfortably high.

With due respect, this is a politically charged issue so I'm dubious of trusting random people, such as the author of that article. Are there more established sources around on this issue?

Re: Jacob Appelbaum’s response to accusations by the Tor community

#76

Post by artichokeheart » Mon, Jun 06, 2016, 10:12 PM UTC

geofft wrote: post #61

captainmuon wrote: post #52

In cases like this where it is word against word, I think it is important as an outsider to hedge your bet. Act as if the allegations are true and false at the same time. Assuming they are true: make sure to create a safe space (virtually, in real live, and in discourse) for potential victims. Don't put the accused person on sensitive community functions. Take (this and further) accusations very seriously. If someone…

> Any scenario could be possible, from personal revenge to a smear campaign by an intelligence agency. It's also worth being aware of the possibility that Jacob Appelbaum is himself an agent of an intelligence agency (either a plant, or someone turned informant once they realized they could blackmail him and that a creep is a useful informant), and his behavior is a way to maintain his power and in turn the intellige…

Lately I've been thinking that the whole MRA/gamergate/anti-sjw movement was some kind of PsyOps meant to undermine the Internet, but it felt too crazy conspiracy theoryish. That inciteblog post and this article (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jun/24/undercover-police-...) makes me wonder if I'm right.

Re: Jacob Appelbaum’s response to accusations by the Tor community

#77

Post by openasocket » Mon, Jun 06, 2016, 10:13 PM UTC

sievebrain wrote: post #64

DanBC wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look how how rape victims are treated by police and the courts. It's not surprising that people are reluctant to report rape and sexual assault. Here's one, where the perpetrator was seen by other people assaulting someone who was passed out drunk: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/06/stanford-sexu... He still said the sex was consensual, and his lawyers put that women through hell.

I guess you mean they're treated badly? The legal system in western countries is very biased in favour of rape accusers. Shield laws are a concrete manifestation of that. Often police are told to automatically believe any rape accusation even if their common sense is telling them it's likely to be false. And so on. Yes, if you make a serious accusation against someone, their defence lawyer is going to ask difficult q…

>The legal system in western countries is very biased in favour of rape accusers.

This is patently false. Conviction rates for rape are far lower compared to other crimes[1]

>Shield laws are a concrete manifestation of that

Shield laws make it so news reporters cannot be forced to reveal their sources, I don't see what this has to do with rape cases.

>Being asked a few questions is in no way comparable.

Being forced to re-experience a traumatic event by a party determined to discredit you is pretty horrible.

Also, you should look at the case linked. The accused was found assaulting the girl in an alley by third party witnesses, and received six months probation.

[1]Kelly, Lovett and Regan, A gap or a chasm? Attrition in reported rape cases, 2005

Re: Jacob Appelbaum’s response to accusations by the Tor community

#78

Post by nickpsecurity » Mon, Jun 06, 2016, 10:14 PM UTC

Sacho wrote: post #40

Sanddancer wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reporting it to the police is an amazingly stressful process that requires you to relive it again and again, being tried in the public eye, opening yourself up to claims of being a slut, etc. Just being able to admit you were raped is a strength a lot of victims don't have.

Creating a site that alleges you are a rapist is an amazingly stressful process for the presumed innocent person, requiring him to respond to a torrent of media and social hate and shunning, being tried in the public eye, open to claims of being a "monster", etc. You could argue you're "helping" more people by believing rape claims, but that's both mob rule(the rights of the many trample the rights of the few) and no…

Exactly. Most of the problems they mention for police apply to other tactics. Only difference is that the police (a) might punish them if they're lying or (b) might protect people via locking the guy ip if they think they're telling the truth. Unsubstantiated claims in social media are so much safer. ;)

Re: Jacob Appelbaum’s response to accusations by the Tor community

#79

Post by tptacek » Mon, Jun 06, 2016, 10:15 PM UTC

Chris2048 wrote: post #69

geofft wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any scenario could be possible, from personal revenge to a smear campaign by an intelligence agency. It's also worth being aware of the possibility that Jacob Appelbaum is himself an agent of an intelligence agency (either a plant, or someone turned informant once they realized they could blackmail him and that a creep is a useful informant), and his behavior is a way to maintain his power and in turn the intellige…

While conspiracy theory is a risky proposition, in this case the agencies involved are known for such things. COINTELPRO, prism etc, so it's no entirely implausible to raise such concerns.

First: no, this is not plausible.

Second, a question: exactly what is it that people think Jacob Appelbaum did to make him Public Enemy #1 of any government? He's not an especially important Tor contributor. Tor is not only funded by the US Government, but it began as a project at the Naval Research Lab.

He's a spokesperson for Wikileaks, and Wikileaks has gotten itself engaged in serious legal issues with the US Government, but he's far from the only person who's done that, and it's not at all clear why anyone should believe he's ever had an important operational role with WL (as opposed to being an advocate).

Why would Appelbaum be singled out for "black ops" like this while Glenn Greenwald is spared? Greenwald had an operational role in leaking intelligence secrets from the US Government; not only that, but he's still sitting on a large cache of documents and gradually leaking them out.

A Wired article today suggested that Appelbaum had "close to rock-star status" in the hacker community. Which community would that be? His reputation in the security hacker is minimal; he's known primarily for being known.

What's so important about Appelbaum that he'd be a state-level target? For any government?

Re: Jacob Appelbaum’s response to accusations by the Tor community

#80

Post by nullc » Mon, Jun 06, 2016, 10:15 PM UTC

vintermann wrote: post #22

petertodd wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And if they don't group their stories together, then it looks like there's few accusations against him. As long as the accusations on that site are made anonymously, it doesn't look like there are any concrete accusations against him.

I'd be surprised if acquaintances of Appelbaum can't piece together who are making these accusations. That's the point too, they probably want to warn people without outing to the world exactly who suffered what. But that also means there's enough info that the same people could easily speak up in Appelbaum's defense if the allegations are untrue - since they're a lot about stuff he's done in public. They haven't so…

I refuted some of the claims, that which I am able-- most are completely impossible to respond to because they are so vague.

The prior claims of Jake plagiarizing that I've seen are patently untrue, and I think I refuted them conclusively the last time I saw them made: http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.security.otr.devel/155...