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Eric Holder says Edward Snowden performed a 'public service'

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Re: Eric Holder says Edward Snowden performed a 'public service'

#71

Post by gizmo »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #54
StanislavPetrov wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why is this argument not immediately raised every time some clown uses the "he broke the law, he has to face the music" argument? Corporate media outlets exist to disseminate propaganda, not seek consistent, logical answers to important questions. They seek to frame the debate in the context constructed by Wall Street and Washington and redirect anger and angst so that people fight against each other instead of agai…

That's definitely an interesting theory. And intentional or not, I think side-battles do deflect attention from the 1% issue (as you called "oligarchs"). However, I think you do a disservice to your cause when you use blanket remarks like "Corporate media outlets exist to disseminate propaganda, not seek consistent, logical answers to important questions" without clarifying. I think we can easily rule out that all co…

I take issue with the notion that an organization can't serve as a propaganda machine when the people who work there have good intentions. Why? Because practically everybody has good intentions. Even genocidal maniacs believe their actions are merely an "unfortunate necessity" that can be justified by looking at the long run. If the worst of humanity isn't contradicted by "good intentions" then nothing is. It's human nature to rationalize our beliefs, especially when we stand to gain from doing so. Besides, no shadowy conspiracy is needed to explain that which can be explained easily by incentives and social order.

In 'Manufacturing Consent'[1] Chomsky outlines 5 ways in which the media are systematically biased, and end up acting as propaganda machines despite being staffed with honest and well-meaning journalists. It's a very well known model (although certainly controversial).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_model

Re: Eric Holder says Edward Snowden performed a 'public service'

#72

Post by nickpsecurity »

dandare wrote: post #11

It is unbelievable how (self)censored the mainstream media/politics discussion is. Keith Alexander lied to the congress on record, whistleblowers before Snowden were jailed for blowing the whistle and there was absolutely no chance he could reveal/fix any illegal wrongdoing by the government via the official whistleblowers channels. He did not run away and ruin his sweet life for the lulz, there was clearly no other…

I agree. This is a form of self-censorship in the media to stay tight with Washington. They have special privileges they don't want to loose. They might also be concerned given the reaction of Obama Administration to leakers and anyone supporting them. Cover their ass on top of their normal games.

Re: Eric Holder says Edward Snowden performed a 'public service'

#73

Post by dandare »

gogopuppygogo wrote: post #30
meursault334 wrote: post #5

I hope Obama does something to resolve both the Snowden situation and get Chelsea Manning out of prison before he leaves office. I can't see what the downside is to him of doing the right thing at this point.

Manning isn't the same as Snowden. Lumping them together is a disservice to what Snowden did. Manning volunteered for the military and gave up some rights as a result. He then distributed data that put lives in danger because he didn't think to clean it up. Snowden was a private citizen, one who felt his country was not going down the right path. He took time to hatch a plan and release data that he believed wouldn't…

You are bit mistaken - both Snowden and Manning went through reputable journalists, neither of them dumped any data directly to the public/adversaries. Also saying that if you volunteered for the military you should STFU when you see war crimes is questionable at best.

Re: Eric Holder says Edward Snowden performed a 'public service'

#74

Post by nickpsecurity »

tdkl wrote: post #14
dandare wrote: post #11

It is unbelievable how (self)censored the mainstream media/politics discussion is. Keith Alexander lied to the congress on record, whistleblowers before Snowden were jailed for blowing the whistle and there was absolutely no chance he could reveal/fix any illegal wrongdoing by the government via the official whistleblowers channels. He did not run away and ruin his sweet life for the lulz, there was clearly no other…

> Keith Alexander lied to the congress on record You forgot the war liars/criminals Bush, Rice and Powell.

Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld are still on top of my shitlist as far as people that need to be brought to justice for betraying America. Unlike the "harms" Snowden did, their disinformation campaign on Iraq murdered over 6,000 Americans, maimed many more, killed several hundred thousand in Iraq, cost a few hundred billion, and have trillions in long-term liabilities.

I consider Snowden's case a mixed bag depending on which leaks we're talking about. Yet, locking him away for damage to national security without giving the rest life imprisonment doesn't begin to be justice.

Re: Eric Holder says Edward Snowden performed a 'public service'

#75

Post by nickpsecurity »

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #64
slg wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are really equating every journalist working for a mainstream media company with the former head of the KKK? I'm not sure how I should even respond to crazy allegations like that. This has been one of the annoying side effects of Snowden. Suddenly one conspiracy theory proved to be true, so now some people think that any conspiracy theory has a chance to be true. Soon we end up with people suggesting that tens of…

>You are really equating every journalist working for a mainstream media company with the former head of the KKK? I'm not sure how I should even respond to crazy allegations like that. Perhaps the concept of an analogy is alien to your world, so I'll try to make it simpler for you. If you hire someone whose views are well known to write for you, you have a pretty good idea of knowing what you are going to get without…

Good list. Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent has a good presentation on this stuff. Just gotta filter out... maybe do a whole edit for others... all his philosophical stuff to leave just the tactics and evidence of media manipulation. Those are the real gold of the movie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHa6NflkW3Y

Re: Eric Holder says Edward Snowden performed a 'public service'

#76

Post by woodman »

alanwatts wrote: post #68
woodman wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More prosecutions under the Espionage Act than every prior administration combined... I don't see a pardon in the cards. Also, a trial balloon wouldn't be Holder calling for a trial - that has been said many times by many politicians for a long time.

Couldn't it be more advantageous for them to pardon him rather than taking him to trial and risking exposure of the details?

What details did you have in mind? Even if we were to ignore the nature of the state as envisioned by his party, the President's actions clearly demonstrate that he is a proponent of state secrets - a pardon would directly undercut that position. The statist has complete faith in the system (at least in the long run), that is why the whole song and dance about going through the government approved whistleblower program keeps getting mentioned - regardless of the ill-conceived nature of the program or how righteous the leaker's cause is.

Re: Eric Holder says Edward Snowden performed a 'public service'

#77

Post by jbicha »

gogopuppygogo wrote: post #30
meursault334 wrote: post #5

I hope Obama does something to resolve both the Snowden situation and get Chelsea Manning out of prison before he leaves office. I can't see what the downside is to him of doing the right thing at this point.

Manning isn't the same as Snowden. Lumping them together is a disservice to what Snowden did. Manning volunteered for the military and gave up some rights as a result. He then distributed data that put lives in danger because he didn't think to clean it up. Snowden was a private citizen, one who felt his country was not going down the right path. He took time to hatch a plan and release data that he believed wouldn't…

If Manning is a volunteer, how wasn't Snowden a volunteer too?

Both signed strict non-disclosure agreements to work for the US government. Both gave up rights.

In one way, Snowden served more voluntarily than Manning did, because Snowden could quit but Manning had to fulfill the enlistment term. Had Manning walked off the job exactly like Snowden did, he could easily have been court-martialed just for that, especially as Manning was working in a war zone.

Re: Eric Holder says Edward Snowden performed a 'public service'

#79

Post by nickpsecurity »

gogopuppygogo wrote: post #30
meursault334 wrote: post #5

I hope Obama does something to resolve both the Snowden situation and get Chelsea Manning out of prison before he leaves office. I can't see what the downside is to him of doing the right thing at this point.

Manning isn't the same as Snowden. Lumping them together is a disservice to what Snowden did. Manning volunteered for the military and gave up some rights as a result. He then distributed data that put lives in danger because he didn't think to clean it up. Snowden was a private citizen, one who felt his country was not going down the right path. He took time to hatch a plan and release data that he believed wouldn't…

No, Snowden did exactly what Manning did with the data except took the time to read and organize it per several interviews. Despite being able to filter to domestic only, he instead dumped all NSA's secrets (including foreign operations) he had onto foreign journalists. That's risking operators' lives esp if a foreign, intelligence service our human assets target decides to target those media organizations. Given their results on defense contractors and banks, I'd bet on the foreign spooks getting the Snowden files except for where they were airgapped, guarded day & night in person, and only used by long-time vets.

So, operations blown, tactics exposed, and foreigners having our data on foreign operations. Yes, he burned the shit out of U.S. operations on top of his domestic whistleblowing which I applaud. An example of someone who didn't burn us would be Binney who, knowing all kinds of capabilities, just leaked specific programs and data that were unconstitutional and a threat to citizens' rights.

Re: Eric Holder says Edward Snowden performed a 'public service'

#80

Post by qrendel »

blackguardx wrote: post #26
tdkl wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Keith Alexander lied to the congress on record You forgot the war liars/criminals Bush, Rice and Powell.

I was under the impression that Powell was a man of integrity and really resented being used by the Bush administration to provide justification for the war. I thought he was just regurgitating the lies told to him. Edit: Am I being downvoted for expressing my knowledge of the situation? If you think I am wrong, say so. Try to educate me. Downvoting for disagreeing does nothing. When he testified about yellowcake ura…

It's extremely unlikely most of the top people involved didn't know. See: https://theintercept.com/2016/02/18/trump-is-right-bush-lied...

There's also a link in there to a section of Bob Woodward's book Plan of Attack claiming Powell knowingly altered evidence for his UN presentation.

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