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Ethereum’s $150M DAO Opens as Researchers Call for a Halt

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Re: Ethereum’s $150M DAO Opens as Researchers Call for a Halt

#71

Post by zekevermillion »

Joof wrote: post #35
jgalt212 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can't ask permission or you'd be out of business before you managed to change the laws. That strategy didn't work out too well for Zenefits.

But it has worked out for others. Risks are still risks.

It's a matter of degree. It might be a good risk to run a licensed recreational pot business in Colorado. Technically you're committing a federal crime, but there's a non-enforcement policy and as long as there's safety in numbers and a D in the White House you're probably OK. However, it's a bad idea to run a recreational cocaine business in any state. Requires a knowledge of the specific regulators, their views, and unofficial policies, to get this kind of decision right. Bringing this back to bitcoin-land, it seems that many bitcoin exchanges have knowingly operated without required state licenses for some years. However, the founders are not in jail. Why not? I think they have taken a considered approach to "partial" compliance, working out informal agreements with state regulators for eventual compliance, and avoiding operations in states that take a more hardline view. Eventually the top exchanges like Coinbase will get whatever licenses they need to, just a matter of time and $$$.

Re: Ethereum’s $150M DAO Opens as Researchers Call for a Halt

#72

Post by aminok »

zekevermillion wrote: post #70
aminok wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US doesn't rule the world (yet).

We don't and never will. Does that mean that US law is irrelevant? From from it.

US law is not applicable in some countries, because they maintain independence from the US legal system.

Re: Ethereum’s $150M DAO Opens as Researchers Call for a Halt

#73

Post by darawk »

ubernostrum wrote: post #66
darawk wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No country is going to extradite one of its own citizens for selling a financial product that doesn't happen to be approved by the US SEC and isn't a ponzi scheme / scam (the DAO may be a lot of things, but it is likely not an explicit confidence scheme). Not to mention the fact that there are plenty of countries who won't extradite to the US for any reason.

Not to mention the fact that there are plenty of countries who won't extradite to the US for any reason. Try setting up a business in one of them and let me know how you like the environment.

You're missing the point. The DAO does not care about the business climate of any particular country. The curators can reside in any country in the world and finance any company anywhere in the world.

Re: Ethereum’s $150M DAO Opens as Researchers Call for a Halt

#74

Post by darawk »

zekevermillion wrote: post #69
darawk wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No country is going to extradite one of its own citizens for selling a financial product that doesn't happen to be approved by the US SEC and isn't a ponzi scheme / scam (the DAO may be a lot of things, but it is likely not an explicit confidence scheme). Not to mention the fact that there are plenty of countries who won't extradite to the US for any reason.

But I am speaking exactly of the scenario where a dao project curator/contractor is perpetrating a financial crime. In that case, most countries would in fact extradite. If that's even necessary. I mention US laws not b/c I'm in favor of US imperialism but b/c I am familiar with these laws. I'm sure that there are other relevant jurisdictions that would frown upon financial crimes regardless of new age window dressin…

I don't think it's clear that the DAO represents a 'financial crime'. Especially not on the part of the curators. It is an unregulated, unlicensed investment vehicle, but it's certainly not predatory, and especially not on the part of the curators (who are the only arrestable individuals).

Re: Ethereum’s $150M DAO Opens as Researchers Call for a Halt

#75

Post by ubernostrum »

darawk wrote: post #73
ubernostrum wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention the fact that there are plenty of countries who won't extradite to the US for any reason. Try setting up a business in one of them and let me know how you like the environment.

You're missing the point. The DAO does not care about the business climate of any particular country. The curators can reside in any country in the world and finance any company anywhere in the world.

So, set up in a repressive place with no extradition to the US, and see how well the "we operate under magical Internet law, it means you can't touch us" defense works there.

Re: Ethereum’s $150M DAO Opens as Researchers Call for a Halt

#76

Post by darawk »

ubernostrum wrote: post #75
darawk wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point. The DAO does not care about the business climate of any particular country. The curators can reside in any country in the world and finance any company anywhere in the world.

So, set up in a repressive place with no extradition to the US, and see how well the "we operate under magical Internet law, it means you can't touch us" defense works there.

Are you serious? Take a look around eastern europe. Take a look at international pharmacies that ship prescription drugs into the US. Take a look at chinese labs that ship research chemicals (recreational drugs) into the US.

There are tons of examples of this happening in practice, in the real world, right now. All you have to do is look.

Re: Ethereum’s $150M DAO Opens as Researchers Call for a Halt

#77

Post by DennisP »

ianai wrote: post #55
llamataboot wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case, the blockchain isn't acting like a currency, it's acting like a impartial applyer of decisions made by people..

Interesting, got a link?

Here's the main site, link to the whitepaper at the bottom of this page: https://daohub.org/about.html

Re: Ethereum’s $150M DAO Opens as Researchers Call for a Halt

#78

Post by gst »

zekevermillion wrote: post #69
darawk wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No country is going to extradite one of its own citizens for selling a financial product that doesn't happen to be approved by the US SEC and isn't a ponzi scheme / scam (the DAO may be a lot of things, but it is likely not an explicit confidence scheme). Not to mention the fact that there are plenty of countries who won't extradite to the US for any reason.

But I am speaking exactly of the scenario where a dao project curator/contractor is perpetrating a financial crime. In that case, most countries would in fact extradite. If that's even necessary. I mention US laws not b/c I'm in favor of US imperialism but b/c I am familiar with these laws. I'm sure that there are other relevant jurisdictions that would frown upon financial crimes regardless of new age window dressin…

I don't know about the law of other countries, but my home country (Austria) does not extradite its own citizens, no matter what the crime is. However, it is possible that you end up in front of an Austrian court, even if you commited the crime in another country. This will only happen in cases where the crime is actually a crime in Austria. Furthermore, the court will use Austrian law, so US law would be quite irrelevant in that case.

There might be an exception when the extradition request is issued by an EU country, but I'm not sure how this would be handled. Afaik the EU requires member states to extradite citizens and non-citizens to other member states. However, (afaik) the law that prevents Austria from extraditing its own nationals is at the constitution level.

Re: Ethereum’s $150M DAO Opens as Researchers Call for a Halt

#79

Post by gst »

zekevermillion wrote: post #70
aminok wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US doesn't rule the world (yet).

We don't and never will. Does that mean that US law is irrelevant? From from it.

Yes - US law is pretty irrelevant for most people who live outside the US and who don't do business with the US.

How relevant is China's law for an US citizen who doesn't leave the country?

Re: Ethereum’s $150M DAO Opens as Researchers Call for a Halt

#80

Post by jgalt212 »

Joof wrote: post #35
jgalt212 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can't ask permission or you'd be out of business before you managed to change the laws. That strategy didn't work out too well for Zenefits.

But it has worked out for others. Risks are still risks.

Yes, it comes down to risk management and decision making under uncertainty. i.e. how much of a competitive advantage can we gain by pushing the regulatory limits, and what are the potential downsides and probability associated with such downsides.

PG has expressed a view that he favors start ups that push regulatory boundaries, but I'm sure his view is more nuanced than such a blanket statement.

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