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Indefinite prison for suspect who won’t decrypt hard drives, US government says

arstechnica.co.uk

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Re: Indefinite prison for suspect who won’t decrypt hard drives, US government says

#71

Post by probably_wrong »

I agree with the overall idea that this is an interesting/problematic case, but I think the discussion would be better served if we stopped assuming that the authorities here are morons.

No, forgetting your password is not a lifetime sentence. No, not knowing the password for an item you've never seen is not a lifetime sentence either. Refusing to obey a judge's order, however, will get you in trouble. Again, these people are not morons, and if they say the guy is only pretending to have forgotten his password (a dishonest criminal? shocking), they might have a good reason.

Re: Indefinite prison for suspect who won’t decrypt hard drives, US government says

#72

Post by falcolas »

avar wrote: post #69
CPLX wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you could just put actual kiddie porn on the planted hard drives and save yourself this entire legal conundrum.

Coming up with real fake evidence is a lot harder than just coming up with a random blob that the cops think is evidence the suspect is hiding. E.g. are you really able to carefully craft a filesystem image that you're sure has no metadata that proves the innocence of the suspect?

Eh, not so hard. Proxy their internet for a browsing session, and you put thumbnails of images in their cache. If they have any encrypted drive, or any encrypted blobs (could push those into their cache as well), and they're not going to have a great day.

Cached images has been enough to put away more than a few folks - there was also recently a story about using exactly that tactic against a suspected spy.

Re: Indefinite prison for suspect who won’t decrypt hard drives, US government says

#73

Post by patrickmay »

oarsinsync wrote: post #7
BillinghamJ wrote: post #5

In the UK, this is actually legal sadly.

Sections 49 & 53 of the RIPA allows for up to two years imprisonment for failing to provide unencrypted copies of key material. Not quite the same as life. Although I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to abuse it in this way.

> Although I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to abuse it in this way.

Simple. Imprison someone for two years. Demand they provide key material again. Rinse and repeat.

Re: Indefinite prison for suspect who won’t decrypt hard drives, US government says

#74

Post by e40 »

CPLX wrote: post #60
virmundi wrote: post #45

The best part of this whole story is the unintended consequence of attack. Don't like someone, encrypt a zip drive with drivel, toss it in his car and call the cops. Say you saw him looking at what could be kiddie porn. The guy doesn't know the password. Life in prison. No excuse. This applies not merely to Bob in Accounting that's a dick, but to everyone: Congress! Start sniping political enemies. A jump drive here.…

Or you could just put actual kiddie porn on the planted hard drives and save yourself this entire legal conundrum.

But then the detention won't be indefinite.

Re: Indefinite prison for suspect who won’t decrypt hard drives, US government says

#75

Post by e40 »

coreyp_1 wrote: post #2

This is an important constitutional issue! The subject may be deplorable, but the root issue is not. If it is a "foregone conclusion", then they should have no problem convicting the guy without forcing him to testify against himself. If it is not a "foregone conclusion", then they have been lying and are illegally (unconstitutionally) depriving him of his freedom for months, without even charging him with a crime!

It is because the subject is deplorable that this is an issue. It is literally the only issue that would allow this trojan into the legal system.

Re: Indefinite prison for suspect who won’t decrypt hard drives, US government says

#77

Post by CPLX »

tptacek wrote: post #53
throwaway7767 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistically, how can we differentiate between a suspect who's refusing to unlock something, and a suspect who has genuinely forgotten his password? I know for myself, even with passwords I use multiple times a day from memory, it only takes a couple of months of not using them before I cannot recall them again. This guy has been locked up for 7 months. See also the numerous people who stored bitcoin in brain wallet…

There is no foolproof way, but uncertainty is something the law has dealt with for centuries, and isn't unique to this situation. The short answer is: it gets argued in court like everything else. If cryptography introduces too many new cases of contempt, we'll need to rework the contempt system, and, in particular, introduce juries to the process (perhaps for contempt sentences exceeding a certain number of weeks).

> uncertainty is something the law has dealt with for centuries, and isn't unique to this situation. The short answer is: it gets argued in court like everything else.

Yes, precisely. This is a specific point I have seen programmer types uniquely vulnerable to tripping over.

Courts, generally, aren't like computers, where a little technicality will override common sense completely in a literalistic following of instructions. Sure there are exceptions to this rule, but for the most part a court proceeding has humans running it that live in the actual society and have some ability to factor in not just the rules but also the consequences, including unintended ones, of their actions.

Re: Indefinite prison for suspect who won’t decrypt hard drives, US government says

#78

Post by DennisP »

cypherpunks01 wrote: post #63

This certainly points towards having more widespread support for plausible deniability, no? Are there any mass encryption tools that are reasonably simple to set up providing this (besides TrueCrypt Hidden Volumes)? Would someone continue to be held in contempt if they furnished a decrypted drive that didn't contain the information that court held as a "foregone conclusion" that it contained?

Why besides TrueCrypt?

Re: Indefinite prison for suspect who won’t decrypt hard drives, US government says

#79

Post by vinceguidry »

corin_ wrote: post #64
vinceguidry wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't be so quick to claim they're doing nothing wrong. Every year, rhinos in Africa are threatened by poachers in Africa who want their horns for the black market in China. Every person who buys rhino horn in Africa, every person who is in a position to fight the unnecessary consumption of endangered animals and doesn't, is complicit in the destruction of their species. You don't get a pass because you aren't t…

The person you are replying to wasn't saying that paedophiles who look at child porn aren't doing anything wrong. If he was, your rhino analogy would be a good one, and is the reason nearly everyone agrees that child porn should be illegal even if you are only viewing it. But he was saying that a being attracted to children is in itself not doing anything wrong. Plenty of paedophiles don't look at child porn, do anyt…

> But he was saying that a being attracted to children is in itself not doing anything wrong.

> The rhino equivilent would be if you wanted to use rhino horn but because you know it would be wrong to, you never do use it.

I would argue that both of these things are wrong, though not as wrong as actually acting on the desires. I don't think there should be any legal consequences for the thoughts in your head, but the social stigma and pressure to change those thoughts is very much needed and is a useful social tool for protecting vulnerable classes.

Let's introduce another analogy. Racism is wrong, if you think racist thoughts, even if you never act on them, then you are contributing to the denigration and subjugation of people of color. The only socially-acceptable response to having racist thoughts is to work to change those thoughts.

Paedophilia may be sexuality, and yes, it was wrong to demonize homosexuality, but unless you're arguing that one day we'll look at paedophilia the same way, then you can't put them in the same boat morally.

Celibacy is an acceptable response to paedophilic sexuality, but a better one is to stop being a paedophile. Sex therapists exist, it is something you can work on. It's worth it to at least try.

Re: Indefinite prison for suspect who won’t decrypt hard drives, US government says

#80

Post by octobyte »

lossolo wrote: post #48
s_q_b wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither British common law or Continental law systems have any mechanism to challenge this type or behavior. At least in the US, there's an absolute right against self-incrimination, guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment. The higher courts have been pretty clear, going all the way back to combination locks, that coercing a password would constitute requiring a defendant to incriminate him or herself. The actions of the j…

I was referring to other countries in EU like NL or PL etc.

Then you really should have specified that, rather than wording it like these protections apply to all EU nations.
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