Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agree. There is a world market for maybe five computers. Ok, I am joking you may be right. But it is notoriously difficult to predict the market for programming languages. had you attended LL2 on [November 9, 2002]( http://weblog.raganwald.com/2007/01/where-were-you-on-saturd... ), could you have predicted which of the languages discussed would be popular... five years later?
I dont know. Market for this kind of computer language vs eshop solution and funding is very small in comparison. Market means someone will pay for using Arc.
Paul Graham: Six Principles for Making New Things
71–80 of 125 posts
Re: Paul Graham: Six Principles for Making New Things
#72How does this mesh with "don't try to create trends, find and ride them"? That's advice I've heard a lot. The final note about Reddit seems to say the opposite: "The Reddits pushed so hard against the current that they reversed it". That is probably incorrect. They found a local maxima in the trend for social news before others spotted it. This doesn't really repudiate anything you say in the essay. But people should…
You mean Joe Kraus's advice? That's advice for making money at something before your funding runs out. If burn rate is a factor, you may not be able to survive a contemptuous initial reaction, even if you're right.
Re: Paul Graham: Six Principles for Making New Things
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
Interesting angle, but I really don't believe nastiness has much to do with it. We hackers are just dying to let others know how smart we are. It's what makes us tick. So we come here (and other forums and blogs) because most of us have trouble finding peers who even understand what we're talking about. Add in a lack of writing style and the anonymity of the internet, and our puffing and strutting APPEARS to be nasti…
I hear what you're saying in terms of people not being able to write well, and that people are trying to beat their geeky chests in a sort of hacker bravado. I also don't get a really nasty vibe from Hacker news, like I do on Reddit. I was referring to the Hacker culture at large when I was referring to "nastiness". I believe that there is a lot of bravado and competition in Geek culture. But there's also a lot of na…
It's the anonymity. Combined with a 95% male audience. If each reddit commenter had to sign with his full name, and his picture would be shown next to his comments, the tone would be quite different.
Re: Paul Graham: Six Principles for Making New Things
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
I dont know. Market for this kind of computer language vs eshop solution and funding is very small in comparison. Market means someone will pay for using Arc.
If that's what you mean by market, there's no market for any programming language.
Re: Paul Graham: Six Principles for Making New Things
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
In general, at this stage, the amount of flak that Arc has received is so disproportionate to the normal amount of flak that new ideas receive because it hasn't solved any problems that real hackers have encountered , well enough that they'd want to switch to writing programs in it. You haven't really solved the overlooked problem of core language design until people start using your cleaner core language, and to do…
It solves the problem hackers face in every program they write, and which high level languages exist to solve: making programs smaller. Try translating some Arc programs into Common Lisp or Scheme and you'll see what I mean. And incidentally, I don't have to give hardened users of existing languages reason enough to switch. There are new people learning to program all the time, and to them, all languages are on a lev…
a) Programs in "high level" languages can fail to be shorter than their lower-level equivalents. The simple solution: be merciless in keeping the important things short!
b) The overlooked problem in language design is high-level language brevity.
c) The "language design" problem that needs to be solved is... not sure about this one. I'm guessing it's the fact that the rate of change in the field is putting more programmers into the role of language designers at an increasing rate and anything that helps them avoid bad decisions based on ignorance is significant.
d) deliver informally as possible: when designing a new language, write enough to make the goals clear, address issues in a discussion group and put the code somewhere without sweating organizational details like setting up code repositories, bug tracking systems, regression frameworks, etc.
e) crude version 1: implement the minimal stuff using an existing system and don't worry about the fact that to the unaware it may seem just like a trivial program in that system.
f) iterate rapidly: don't get bogged down by things like release processes and backward compatibility. Just focus on getting feedback, experimenting, measuring and looking for improvements.
Re: Paul Graham: Six Principles for Making New Things
#76How does this mesh with "don't try to create trends, find and ride them"? That's advice I've heard a lot. The final note about Reddit seems to say the opposite: "The Reddits pushed so hard against the current that they reversed it". That is probably incorrect. They found a local maxima in the trend for social news before others spotted it. This doesn't really repudiate anything you say in the essay. But people should…
How does this mesh with "don't try to create trends, find and ride them"? You mean Joe Kraus's advice? That's advice for making money at something before your funding runs out. If burn rate is a factor, you may not be able to survive a contemptuous initial reaction, even if you're right.
I suppose you're right and I only found it general advice because it completely applies to my current state in life. Lots of people make that mistake: "this totally applies to me, it must be good advice generally"
After the first $10B, once I start working on a space elevator and robotic asteroid mining, I expect the luxury of a contemptuous initial reaction.
Re: Paul Graham: Six Principles for Making New Things
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
If that's what you mean by market, there's no market for any programming language.
Is it for a programming language startup to make money if you have a superior language? Say you have a programing language that is to Lisp as Lisp was to Fortran, how (if at all) can you make money from it?
Re: Paul Graham: Six Principles for Making New Things
#78I agree on general principle, but there's a big difference between Viaweb & YCombinator vs. Arc: Market. Viaweb and YC were each aimed at the overlooked low end of a market. Small businesses may not be sexy, but they had a pressing need for a web presence, and the can't write it themselves.. College students and young professionals may not be experienced, but they have a real need for money and advice, and they (usua…
Re: Paul Graham: Six Principles for Making New Things
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
They don't need a new programming language; if they wanted one, they could invent it themselves. Where is it, then? Where is the final, perfect Lisp that's so easy to write? What you seem to be saying is that being smart automatically makes people good at language design. And you are just dead wrong. Being smart may make you a good language implementor, but there's little correlation between that and the kind of skil…
"Where is it, then? Where is the final, perfect Lisp that's so easy to write?" Maybe there isn't a final, perfect Lisp. Maybe there are lots of individual Lisps that are each perfect for some class of problems. That's one of the great strengths of Lisp: if an existing implementation is almost-but-not-quite what you need, you can throw a few macros on it and adapt it into a new language that is what you need. It's one…
Re: Paul Graham: Six Principles for Making New Things
#80Love your stuff, Paul.