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Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

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Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#71

Post by jessaustin »

hodwik wrote: post #17
Kurtz79 wrote: post #2

I find somewhat hilarious that the supposed harbingers of this "collapse" are staunch members of said "oligarchy" (an elitist billionaire and a career politician). Revolutions are not as they once were...

> "hilarious that the supposed harbingers of this "collapse" are staunch members" You must not be very well versed in history then. That's pretty much where it always comes from.

Marie Antoinette would disagree, if she could only find her head...

Certainly many so-called "revolutions" are really just one group of elites fighting another, but "always" is just wrong. Do you think ISIS was formed by elites?

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#72

Post by dragonwriter »

jessaustin wrote: post #71
hodwik wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "hilarious that the supposed harbingers of this "collapse" are staunch members" You must not be very well versed in history then. That's pretty much where it always comes from.

Marie Antoinette would disagree, if she could only find her head... Certainly many so-called "revolutions" are really just one group of elites fighting another, but "always" is just wrong. Do you think ISIS was formed by elites?

> Marie Antoinette would disagree, if she could only find her head...

Not really, the Jacobins that were the main leaders of the French Revolution were elite politicians both from the formal aristocracy and the high ranks of the mercantile/intellectual class.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#73

Post by dragonwriter »

Kurtz79 wrote: post #2

I find somewhat hilarious that the supposed harbingers of this "collapse" are staunch members of said "oligarchy" (an elitist billionaire and a career politician). Revolutions are not as they once were...

Actually, most revolutions are led by disaffected members of the elites that rally the masses, not by the downtrodden masses. There are exceptions, of course, but generally its the elites that have the material resources, the leisure, and the social networks to plan and mobilize revolutionary forces.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#74

Post by PhantomGremlin »

jessaustin wrote: post #71
hodwik wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "hilarious that the supposed harbingers of this "collapse" are staunch members" You must not be very well versed in history then. That's pretty much where it always comes from.

Marie Antoinette would disagree, if she could only find her head... Certainly many so-called "revolutions" are really just one group of elites fighting another, but "always" is just wrong. Do you think ISIS was formed by elites?

Do you think ISIS was formed by elites?

I have absolutely no idea. But I'd venture a wild guess and say there are probably a lot of Ba'ath Party people and ex-Saddam Hussein cronies running ISIS behind the scenes. Those people used to be "elites" back when Saddam ruled.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#75

Post by Kinnard »

filoeleven wrote: post #60
donatj wrote: post #43

I'm very hopeful this election gives the third parties a boost. Unless I suffer a terrible stroke between now and the election I know I will be voting libertarian simply because I couldn't live with myself voting for Trump or Hillary.

I would like to see a coordinated effort from those of us who won't vote for the mainstream candidates. If any 3rd party candidate gets over 5% of the vote, they must by law be included in the debates next time around. We know that a 3rd party will not win the presidential election this time around, so coordinating our votes to get one over 5% in order to inject a new voice into the process seems like a win, even if…

This is a good idea. I was unaware of the 5% rule. Would you consider putting up a site?

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#76

Post by xbmcuser »

tcoppi wrote: post #21

This article is massive clickbait, but I'll comment anyway. Trump and Sanders are manifestations of a long-term trend that has been building at least since the 2008 Financial Crisis. People are dissatisfied with the options they are presented politically, and economic participation is at historically low levels. We have never been more prosperous, but at the same time that prosperity and wealth gains are not only not…

The actual founding was laid even earlier in the Clinton administration people are blaming 2008 crisis for the current anti establishment sentiment are being myopic. The trade deals and removal of banking restrictions supercharged the Us economy and US reaped the benefits for the decade after but that is also the point that wealth started shifting to the top from the middle class and it has kept going on till the middle class has started to revolt. An open world market is good in theory but can really work only if the laws in all countries are the same. Today we get cheap stuff produced from third world countries because those countries do not have the same worker protections etc available. Bush and Republican spending trillions on wars instead of spending that money at home on infrastructure has made things worse.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#77

Post by xbmcuser »

tcoppi wrote: post #21

This article is massive clickbait, but I'll comment anyway. Trump and Sanders are manifestations of a long-term trend that has been building at least since the 2008 Financial Crisis. People are dissatisfied with the options they are presented politically, and economic participation is at historically low levels. We have never been more prosperous, but at the same time that prosperity and wealth gains are not only not…

The actual founding was laid even earlier in the Clinton administration people are blaming 2008 crisis for the current anti establishment sentiment are being myopic. The trade deals and removal of banking restrictions supercharged the Us economy and US reaped the benefits for the decade after but that is also the point that wealth started shifting to the top from the middle class and it has kept going on till the middle class has started to revolt. An open world market is good in theory but can really work only if the laws in all countries are the same. Today we get cheap stuff produced from third world countries because those countries do not have the same worker protections etc available. Bush and Republican spending trillions on wars instead of spending that money at home on infrastructure has made things worse.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#78

Post by majewsky »

cm2187 wrote: post #5
majewsky wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they're coming from within the oligarchy. How is an "outsider" going to succeed, when you need massive campaign funding to even make an impression in the primaries? We might see a more diverse background in revolution leaders if people take it one step further and ignore the democratic process.

I think even within the oligarchy there are people who are not amused to see the wife of a former president competing with the son and brother of two other former presidents. You don't have to be out to dislike this system.

That wasn't my point. I'm not saying that all oligarchs are in line with current policy. In fact, quite the opposite: Trump is clearly an oligarch, and Sanders is at least upper class.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#79

Post by wycx »

For those interested in the relevant history that lead the US to this point, may I suggest American Character by Colin Woodard [1].

The ideology that drives the oligarchy (and arguably modern libertarianism) is descended from that which informed the founding of the Carolina and West Indian slave colonies.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/American-Character-History-Struggle-In...

Colin Woodard's previous book, American Nations was the most interesting book I read last year.

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