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TTIP Leaks

ttip-leaks.org

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Re: TTIP Leaks

#71

Post by RobertoG »

lumberjack wrote: post #43
rkrzr wrote: post #39

This leak once again shows the importance of transparency in negotiations that will impact the lives of 800 million people (and the rest of the world indirectly). If TTIP were ratified, it would be out of the control of any subsequently elected democratic governments as it would be part of international law. Regardless what you think of TTIP it seems like the very least to ask is that a contract of such importance is…

What I'm now wondering is, can the WTO bully US and EU states in the way it can bully third world countries? What if renegade states across both sides of the Atlantic decided to disregard the treaty and the fines that will follow immediately? What will the WTO do then? Sanction them?

This is not how it works. The US and the EU use the WTO for bullying others.

Those treaties are a way of creating a legal framework that can't be altered by national governments. This is not happening against the governments but it's done by the governments to their populations.

This is not US against EU but corporations against people. The idea is to be sure that national governments can't vote against the interest of international business.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#72

Post by mvanvoorden »

ppod wrote: post #58
grecy wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a takeover attempt through the backdoor. In case it wasn't already immensely obvious, the third world war has been underway for some time. This one isn't a war fought with guns and bombs, it's a war fought with information, deals and economies. See China's massive economy and ownership of the US, the massive drop in oil price and what that's done to the world economy etc. The citizens of the world wouldn't…

>this is what we get when countries still want to dominate each other. The most peaceful, prosperous, and healthy period known in human history?

You're repeating propaganda.

May be there's less violence, but the amount of suffering has skyrocketed over the years. A more than significant amount of people are dependent on tranquilizers and anti-depressants to make their life bearable, because for them it has become mundane and meaningless without.

Statistiscs may tell a story of less violence, and people getting older and having more material possessions, but these do not reflect the actual well-being of people, and also these numbers don't show how much exploitation and environmental damage our alleged 'prosperity' causes in other parts of the world.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#73

Post by RobertoG »

jcfrei wrote: post #68
tommyman wrote: post #9

So business groups and lobbyists for companies like IBM, Apple, Google et al. are deeply involved in the US side of negotiations (far more than any public interest groups). Then on the EU side, business groups and lobbyists for companies like IBM, Apple, Google et al. are deeply involved in negotiations to the detriment of all public groups. So this is really lots of big US companies negotiating with themselves on ho…

What is with all the tinfoil hat conspiracies in here? Can we please resume to a rational discussion?

OK, let's go to the facts:

1. A treaty is negotiated between the two major markets in the world.

2. We know that when this kind of treaties are passed is almost impossible to go back.

3. We know that the most important input to those treaties come from corporations.

4. The conversations happen in secret.

5. The democratic representatives are not allowed to read the treaty except in a hurry and without legal help.

6. Free trade is already a reality but, somehow, a wider treaty that create new tribunals where corporations can sue states is necessary.

You are right. No need for tinfoil conspiracies.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#74

Post by tommyman »

forgetsusername wrote: post #45
tommyman wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how much weight that has. Forget what people say to/in public settings and look at their current & previous actions. If Trump were not in presidential race and putting on public face, how do you think he would treat TTiP based on his lifetime actions? I think he would support & exploit it every way he could, & i think thats what he will do in reality regardless of what he states publicly but that's just…

> I'm not sure how much weight that has. > think he would support & exploit it every way he could I'm not going to claim to know Trump's ambitions but you're dismissing the source and countering with "that has no weight...I think..."? The article yesterday about the uninformed vs the misinformed mentioned this: in a time where we are overwhelmed with information, people dismiss things that don't agree with their prec…

I was really trying to stay out of debating the US presidential race (again, not american not my business, do not even know all the people up for election).

So I was trying to generally say 'Don't trust what politicians say, look at what they do'. That's it. I should have used somebody other than Trump as example, it was just a contrived example.

side note - I saw cruise/cruse/cruze (ted) introduce his running mate recently. She started singing some song.. I don't know either of them or their politics but it was the weirdest, most awkward creepy thing I've seen politicians on tv do.

It was seriously creepy and weird. That can't be hard to beat.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#75

Post by jgroszko »

shimon_e wrote: post #70
maxerickson wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of the US does China own?

1.2 trillion Edit: I am answering a simple question. I am not offering any interpretation or comments. So I don't know why commentators are trying to drag me into a debate.

That's... not how US debt works. Countries use the dollar as a reserve currency through buying up treasury bonds. It's simply a safe place to park their money. The US 'owes' China 1.2 trillion in the same way your bank 'owes' you the balance of your checking account.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#76

Post by misja111 »

jcfrei wrote: post #68
tommyman wrote: post #9

So business groups and lobbyists for companies like IBM, Apple, Google et al. are deeply involved in the US side of negotiations (far more than any public interest groups). Then on the EU side, business groups and lobbyists for companies like IBM, Apple, Google et al. are deeply involved in negotiations to the detriment of all public groups. So this is really lots of big US companies negotiating with themselves on ho…

What is with all the tinfoil hat conspiracies in here? Can we please resume to a rational discussion?

I don't think it's because of some conspiracy that EU leaders like Merkel favor TTIP. They probably think it's the right way to go, because TTIP will make EU's economy grow. (See for example http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/html/151787.htm)

And it is obvious that major internationals on both sides will be the ones that benefit most from the cuts in government regulations proposed by TTIP. So a substantial portion of the economic growth will go to them. Therefore I don't think you need to be in the tinfoil hat camp to support the believe that they are lobbying for TTIP.

The mistake that our EU leaders make, IMO, is that what's good for the EU's economy, is not necessarily always good for the majority of its citizens. Those government regulations were there for a reason, for instance to protect the environment, support area's who are economically behind etc.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#78

Post by kpcyrd »

mangeletti wrote: post #77

There is little excuse[1] for such a website to not employ TSL encryption of all traffic. I can't even imagine the size of the TLA database containing : records at this point. 1. https://letsencrypt.org/

I agree that TLS would be nice, but it doesn't hide the fact that you've visited www.ttip-leaks.org

Re: TTIP Leaks

#79

Post by jcfrei »

misja111 wrote: post #76
jcfrei wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is with all the tinfoil hat conspiracies in here? Can we please resume to a rational discussion?

I don't think it's because of some conspiracy that EU leaders like Merkel favor TTIP. They probably think it's the right way to go, because TTIP will make EU's economy grow. (See for example http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/html/151787.htm ) And it is obvious that major internationals on both sides will be the ones that benefit most from the cuts in government regulations proposed by TTIP. So a substantial portion of…

Thanks, just to be clear: I'm not an advocate for TTIP.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#80

Post by tajen »

lumberjack wrote: post #43
rkrzr wrote: post #39

This leak once again shows the importance of transparency in negotiations that will impact the lives of 800 million people (and the rest of the world indirectly). If TTIP were ratified, it would be out of the control of any subsequently elected democratic governments as it would be part of international law. Regardless what you think of TTIP it seems like the very least to ask is that a contract of such importance is…

What I'm now wondering is, can the WTO bully US and EU states in the way it can bully third world countries? What if renegade states across both sides of the Atlantic decided to disregard the treaty and the fines that will follow immediately? What will the WTO do then? Sanction them?

I need help in argumenting: What's the difference between the EU-US WTO agreements and the TTIP, apart from the former being from the XXth century. Aren't we happier and wealthier since the WTO exists?

Please don't tell me about how a treaty should be voted on by the people, because I already agree about this part.

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