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The Case Against Reality

theatlantic.com

71–80 of 114 posts

Re: The Case Against Reality

#71
A quick scroll through the comments here revealed that most of you missed the point.

He's not saying we are quantum hand-waving. He's describing a BIV situation[1]. He's saying that things look weird when we look closely because reality isn't there.

We're neural networks. We always have been. Reality is a layer, one that appears to me to be designed to constrain growth through resource limitations and "garbage collection" (death).

Hello, World!

1. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/skepticism-content-externa...

Re: The Case Against Reality

#72

I get really suspicious when I see quantum physics used in this way. It seems like a misdirection. Given the information in the article, it's impossible to evaluate his claims--we don't have access to the computer models he uses, or the expertise to evaluate his proofs. But there are a lot of gigantic red flags all throughout. Like when he says he's mathematically proved that "an organism that sees reality as it is w…

Agreed.

When I see such arguments I immediately become skeptical because I start seeing a political argument being made, or at least, an argument driven by political leanings.

When I say political, I do not mean party political, but generally being on the left side of the spectrum.

I've known enough philosophers who do their level best to bring science down a peg, seeing it as power struggle between the different ways of "knowing" Think postmodernism and the quest to relativise everything.

Re: The Case Against Reality

#73

I get really suspicious when I see quantum physics used in this way. It seems like a misdirection. Given the information in the article, it's impossible to evaluate his claims--we don't have access to the computer models he uses, or the expertise to evaluate his proofs. But there are a lot of gigantic red flags all throughout. Like when he says he's mathematically proved that "an organism that sees reality as it is w…

> crank

Using labels and insults should almost always be avoided. Attack a person's arguments, not their personality. I'm sure you've heard it before, but this is called "ad hominem".

Personal attacks and labels are a cheap and easy way to associate your target with a social stigma, immediately biasing others' opinions, whether deserved or not. "crank" isn't much better than "conspiracy theorist" or "libtard" or "moron".

Re: The Case Against Reality

#74
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your argument I take that you are very suspicious of quantum mechanics as well?

Your use of the word "very" is a giveaway that you're being snarky. I am definitely suspicious of scientists who act as the truth authority, and cast aspersions on lay people who don't understand their proofs. That attitude is antithetical to the spirit of science, which encourages skepticism and the democratization of thought.

Science is about reaching an expert consensus of the most probably explanation of the available evidence. It is not a democratization of thought - it is evidence that matters not majority opinion or vote of scientists.

More generally, it takes a lifetime of study to truly understand even a small aspect of physics. How can you expect someone to explain a lifetime of study in an article for lay people without glossing over the details? I trust the opinions of one physics professor about quantum mechanics much more than 1 million lay people.

Re: The Case Against Reality

#75
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an article edited for lay audiences. It is for people who don't have the expertise to evaluate his proofs. You can look up his research, though, if you want. If you have an expert friend you can have that friend explain it to you. You can find a list of his publications here: http://cogsci.uci.edu/~ddhoff/publications/ This is one of his papers that quantifies the ideas he talks about in the article: http://cogs…

I get suspicious when some proof is so complex it must be mediated by an expert. I think the burden is on the prover to make their case, rather than on the audience to understand the case.

Most modern math proofs are incomprehensible to anyone but experts. Is modern math suspicious?

Re: The Case Against Reality

#76
post #57

I get really suspicious when I see quantum physics used in this way. It seems like a misdirection. Given the information in the article, it's impossible to evaluate his claims--we don't have access to the computer models he uses, or the expertise to evaluate his proofs. But there are a lot of gigantic red flags all throughout. Like when he says he's mathematically proved that "an organism that sees reality as it is w…

It's an article edited for lay audiences. It is for people who don't have the expertise to evaluate his proofs. You can look up his research, though, if you want. If you have an expert friend you can have that friend explain it to you. You can find a list of his publications here: http://cogsci.uci.edu/~ddhoff/publications/ This is one of his papers that quantifies the ideas he talks about in the article: http://cogs…

I think you've misunderstood my objection on every level. I'm not saying that every pop scientific article should be written so that a layperson can understand all proofs involved, and so on. I'm saying that given what I, as a layperson, can see in the article, his claims seems suspicious. They don't seem logically coherent. They seem to contradict themselves in obvious ways.

If a thinker can't present his ideas in a logically coherent way, there's no reason for me to go through the very time-consuming process of reading a long series of academic papers.

Reading his definition in that paper makes me even more suspicious of his argument here. It's a common problem among academics in specialist fields that they demonstrate a limited claim, and then state a much stronger claim for a popular audience. The claim in the abstract of the paper is that "perceptual systems tuned solely to fitness routinely outcompete those tuned to truth." The claim in the interview is that "an organism that sees reality as it is will never be more fit than an organism of equal complexity that sees none of reality but is just tuned to fitness." Those aren't the same. The first is much stronger.

My suspicion is that he's taking his eccentric or exaggerated views and presenting them on the same level as the more reasonable ideas from his research.

Re: The Case Against Reality

#77
There's so much misinformation in the article. The two major errors are:

> quantum systems don’t seem to be definite objects localized in space until we come along to observe them

No, that's not how it works. When physicists say "observation" in quantum mechanics, they really mean "any interaction, including molecular, photon, electron, etc".

> or when we find ourselves fooled by a perceptual illusion—we realize with a jolt that what we perceive is never the world directly, but rather our brain’s best guess at what that world is like, a kind of internal simulation of an external reality

Again, no. We built tons of devices that are independent of our senses. If they return consistent results, it means that's what reality is. And it doesn't matter if it's simulated or not, we have to deal with it, and we call it "reality".

Re: The Case Against Reality

#78
Some of the ideas in here echo Huxley's theories of mind as expressed in The Doors of Perception — that of the mind as a "filter" for true reality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_at_Large

"Each person is at each moment capable of remembering all that has ever happened to him and of perceiving everything that is happening everywhere in the universe. The function of the brain and nervous system is to protect us from being overwhelmed and confused by this mass of largely useless and irrelevant knowledge, by shutting out most of what we should otherwise perceive or remember at any moment, and leaving only that very small and special selection which is likely to be practically useful. According to such a theory, each one of us is potentially Mind at Large."

Cursory reading of texts in timeless traditions like Zen, Advaita Vedanta, Hinduism, and other mystic philosophical systems will reveal similar concepts — as will self-inquiry.

That we're beginning to approach a scientific/mathematical explanation of these metaphysical principles is no surprise to me.

Re: The Case Against Reality

#79
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> His example merely demonstrated that if consciousness is a function of reality (and for the sake of his example he more or less explicitly makes the assumption that there is an observer independent reality) it can be either optimized on how closely it matches said reality OR how much that function helps survival. Right, I got that. My point is that in order to define what it is to "match reality," you have to alrea…

Ok, I think I can follow some of the points you are making. When I said I think you were being pedantic I meant you were taking the discussion to a meta level which is sort of beyond the scope of the interview. If you say we have to have a discussion about the nature of consciousness before we can talk about whether a function matches a reality then you have sort of put the cart before the horse, don't you think? I m…

I don't think you can talk about consciousness on a mutually agreed basis using math. I think that very few people, when they talk about "consciousness," mean something that a mathematical model can describe straightforwardly.

Re: The Case Against Reality

#80
Well, I think the main flaw is that reasonable people could think that survival fitness and perception reflecting reality and very closely related. The argument that there could be a better survivability fitness than reflecting reality is overblown by Professor Hoffman. It's not like we don't already know that our perceptions can be misguided, optical illusion thrives on it. It's also extremely hard to believe we could come up with such a successful device as science if our perception of the universe was so off. If there is a divergence, it's in fringe effects (like optical illusions) and low percent or sub-percent, not a major shift and distorsion.

It's a fun idea to entertain, but I'm worried that someone with a PhD could hold that our perceptions are so far off.

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