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Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

theguardian.com

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Re: Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

#71

Post by bobwaycott »

rayiner wrote: post #62
ptaipale wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The result is simple: Small Diesel cars can’t exist legally in the US. And that is, of course, intentional. To keep some of the foreign competition away.

Because American companies can't make diesel cars?

Because American companies don't make diesel cars.

Aside from trucks, that is.

I tend to keep up on cars, and I can't name any American-brand, small diesel off the top of my head from the last 30+ years, aside from last year's Chevy Cruze.

Edit/clarification: I'm speaking strictly of the American market. If American companies make small diesel cars for international markets, it's not at all relevant to discussing small diesel cars in the US.

Re: Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

#72

Post by ZeroGravitas »

guscost wrote: post #63
makomk wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that owners can refill the tank by themselves, but manufacturers are required to have a big enough tank that it can be done by the dealer as part of the regular servicing schedule. The tank itself not so much a US thing as it is a modern diesel car thing; it's part of the emissions control system on I think most new diesels.

Wow, I hadn't heard this. What a counterproductive, idiotic piece of regulation.

It's not an idiotic regulation. If you fit a tiny reservoir that needs to be topped up every week then most customers wouldn't bother, and the car would be spewing extra toxins. So you have to make it large enough that normal servicing will ensure it is filled.

Re: Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

#73

Post by ptaipale »

rayiner wrote: post #62
ptaipale wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The result is simple: Small Diesel cars can’t exist legally in the US. And that is, of course, intentional. To keep some of the foreign competition away.

Because American companies can't make diesel cars?

Because keeping diesel cars away from the US market leaves them with a bit less competition.

American companies make some diesel cars in other markets (Ford, and GM with its Opel and Vauxhall brands) but they have a significantly smaller market share in diesels than in gasoline engines.

Easiest way to look at it is this: http://www.statista.com/statistics/425324/eu-car-sales-share...

You'll find Opel, Vauxhall and Ford towards the lower end of the table.

Re: Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

#74

Post by maxerickson »

bobwaycott wrote: post #71
rayiner wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because American companies can't make diesel cars?

Because American companies don't make diesel cars. Aside from trucks, that is. I tend to keep up on cars, and I can't name any American-brand, small diesel off the top of my head from the last 30+ years, aside from last year's Chevy Cruze. Edit/clarification: I'm speaking strictly of the American market. If American companies make small diesel cars for international markets, it's not at all relevant to discussing sma…

There were multiple unfortunate diesels in the 1980s. My first thought was "Ford Escort" and a bit of searching confirms that there was one (Mazda made the engines though).

Re: Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

#75

Post by DanBC »

verytrivial wrote: post #58
bkor wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tests weren't the problem. VW made it so the car only passed during the tests. A test should be somewhat reproducible and that conflicts with not being able to cheat the test. The solution would be to throw some people in jail. Your suggestion that it was even mandatory for companies to behave this way is so weird that I cannot respond to that.

Your first two sentences seems to contradict one another. The assumption was the cars would behave the same in tests versus how they are driven by real drivers, but THAT WASN'T IN THE TEST! Test it! Randomly give them an 4 hour driving profile including resistance and acceleration generated from a model of drivers, fail if it diverges by X% from the reproducible baseline. This is what people are complaining about (la…

> Companies are required to act in the interests of the shareholders.

Leaving the company open to massive regulatory action doesn't feel like it's in the best interest of the shareholders.

Re: Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

#76

Post by ptaipale »

bobwaycott wrote: post #71
rayiner wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because American companies can't make diesel cars?

Because American companies don't make diesel cars. Aside from trucks, that is. I tend to keep up on cars, and I can't name any American-brand, small diesel off the top of my head from the last 30+ years, aside from last year's Chevy Cruze. Edit/clarification: I'm speaking strictly of the American market. If American companies make small diesel cars for international markets, it's not at all relevant to discussing sma…

Ford makes them though, but only in Europe, and they are not particularly strong in diesel at that. Both Focus and Mondeo are available as diesels. And even Fiasco...sorry, Fiesta.

GM don't sell Opels in the US, although they could re-badge them as Chevrolets.

Re: Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

#77

Post by criddell »

guscost wrote: post #63
makomk wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that owners can refill the tank by themselves, but manufacturers are required to have a big enough tank that it can be done by the dealer as part of the regular servicing schedule. The tank itself not so much a US thing as it is a modern diesel car thing; it's part of the emissions control system on I think most new diesels.

Wow, I hadn't heard this. What a counterproductive, idiotic piece of regulation.

The legislation is in place because consumers are lazy.

Re: Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

#78

Post by coredog64 »

bobwaycott wrote: post #71
rayiner wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because American companies can't make diesel cars?

Because American companies don't make diesel cars. Aside from trucks, that is. I tend to keep up on cars, and I can't name any American-brand, small diesel off the top of my head from the last 30+ years, aside from last year's Chevy Cruze. Edit/clarification: I'm speaking strictly of the American market. If American companies make small diesel cars for international markets, it's not at all relevant to discussing sma…

Replying to maxericson downthread:

To the extent that consumers remember crappy American diesels, I would say the most infamous is the Olds diesel. GM took a (not so great) SI engine and turned it into a CI engine.

Re: Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

#79

Post by mikekchar »

deelowe wrote: post #70
alkonaut wrote: post #68

Nothing strange about that - if there is a limit that is hard to meet (which there should be) then manufacturers will make a car that exactly meets the standard. And just like advertised fuel consumption figures, it will meet the standard under very controlled circumstances. In case of fuel consumption the manufacturers can reach the figure by taping shut door seams, using overinflated tyres, throwing out interior to…

Why couldn't a third party just take a production car and do the testing? This is how it works for most compliance testing. This whole situation seems needlessly complex. Or, probably more aptly, it reeks of crony capitalism and politics. Testing and compliance is an engineering problem. It should treated as such.

Although keep in mind that requiring 3rd party, independent auditors creates a market for crappy/soft auditors. I learned that from ISO 9000 work. Companies don't want to hire someone who will fail their product/process, so they hire someone who will conveniently look the other way. Probably the only way is to have government testing... which brings us full circle to the potential of crony capitalism and politics.

Re: Nearly all new diesel cars exceed official pollution limits

#80

Post by dclowd9901 »

codecamper wrote: post #45

My feeling is that catalytic converters go the wrong way. The biggest problem today is global warming. We want to stop burning diesel. By hiding the NOx, there is less of a problem with burning diesel so we burn more. That's sort of a hard ass approach, but. Also using a catalytic converter also saps some energy and so requires more diesel to be burned and so more CO2 released.

Modern catalytic converters are so obscenely efficient, they barely have any effect, even cumulatively, on the amount of fuel lost. You have more loss in the drivetrain.
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