Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face

#71

Post by netheril96 » Sat, Apr 23, 2016, 2:16 AM UTC

mahranch wrote: post #62

L_Rahman wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For most American companies in China, this is true. For Apple it is not. From Ben Thompson at Stratechery: This is a very big deal. Feel free to ignore anyone making snarky comments about China’s average monthly wage being the same as the price of an iPhone 5C. The two pertinent facts about China are that: There is tremendous income disparity There are a TON of people So while many Western markets may have a greater…

Sure, those are facts. But here's another fact: Just because you have a large population doesn't mean your economy is destined for greatness. It doesn't mean you're destined to overtake the U.S and it doesn't mean your destined to evolve, improve or exceed. All it means is that you have a lot of people living in your country (poor people). Will they become middle class? Maybe. But it's most definitely not "certain".…

What does any of those have anything to do with whether Apple needs China or not? Apple does not care if China is not destined for greatness or to overtake the US or to solve the corruptness problem. They only care if the number of people willing and able to purchase their products does not decrease.

Re: Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face

#72

Post by SpaceX_Tech » Sat, Apr 23, 2016, 2:29 AM UTC

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #70

SpaceX_Tech wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe Apple, unlike most companies that contract manufacturing to places like Foxconn, actually owns most, if not all, of the equipment inside the Foxconn facilities. If what I've read is correct, Apple is completely responsible for setting up the actual assembly lines as well. Foxconn essentially just provides the factory space and the labor. I've also heard that Apple is the largest purchaser of CNC machining e…

Terry Gou, CEO of Foxxcon, predicted back in 2015, that in 3 years they would be able to complete 70% of it's assembly line work by robots. I wonder what the remaining 30% is. It seems to me that the most delicate work is the stuff you want to automate the most to lower defects. The less delicate work can be done by humans. But the less delicate work should also be the most easily automated?

From my understanding the final assembly of components into the finished product is still the most delicate/demanding and is still primarily performed by humans.

What you say makes perfect sense that this is in many ways the part of the assembly process that would gain the most benefit from automation but is probably the most difficult to automate.

I'm really curious to see how fully automating this process would change the globalized manufacturing industry. Would Apple move more manufacturing stateside or would there be a new rush to move manufacturing to countries with the lowest energy costs and tax burden. And are these countries typically the same as those offering cheap labor right now.

Does anyone know how China stacks up in terms of costs once you remove the labor component? Are energy and taxes low as well? I imagine environmental/regulatory costs are quite low.

Re: Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face

#73

Post by studentrob » Sat, Apr 23, 2016, 2:39 AM UTC

> Last week, Apple’s iBooks Store and iTunes Movies were shut down in China, just six months after they were started there... then a regulator, the State Administration of Press, Publication, Radio, Film and Television, asserted its authority and demanded the closings

Unsurprising. China has a habit of allowing foreign services to operate for a bit. Then they come out with their own version.

Re: Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face

#74

Post by inimino » Sat, Apr 23, 2016, 3:07 AM UTC

codecamper wrote: post #16

I think as the technical part of the population, we have the opportunity now to greatly change the structure of the world. Government can be largely replaced by software. (just thinking long term here) Democracy can be more pure. Corruption can be controlled. Economies can be stabilized and better planned. Environmental resources can be better managed. We've got a lot more work to do past sharing images & allowing ch…

Which functions of government can be replaced by software specifically? Making laws? Interpreting them? Diplomacy??

I think as the technical part of the population we tend to be overoptimistic about technical solutions, which then get steamrolled by the real world's existing power structures.

Re: Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face

#75

Post by eggy » Sat, Apr 23, 2016, 3:32 AM UTC

draw_down wrote: post #50

soperj wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, most American companies don't collude to screw their workers.

Hahahahahaha, yes they do.

I would say it happens, and collusion is not a good free market practice, and I disagree with it. Are the 'lower' salaries lower than related industries or worker tiers? Did the tech bubble generate over-average salaries, and now the big tech companies can't get tech workers to work for less? I worked at a law firm years ago, where they brought in some Russian programmers on visas for less money, but still the salary was better than what other workers in the same firm were making. The Russian workers also had a more disciplined software development background than the other American workers at the firm, were more productive and incited vicious, misplaced anti-Russian sentiment. I also remember when word processors were making a fortune in the 80s, but that quickly got watered down when more people learned MS Word and to touch type.

Re: Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face

#76

Post by jdietrich » Sat, Apr 23, 2016, 3:48 AM UTC

3pt14159 wrote: post #2

China has to play fairly carefully with Apple. On the one hand it's an American company that puts microphones and cameras into the cafes, offices, and bedrooms of many of their citizenry; but on the other hand, with decreasing competitiveness due to rising wages there isn't anything specifically _stopping_ Apple or other American tech companies from moving manufacturing out of China. Foxconn alone employs about 4.3 m…

Nobody else has anywhere near the capacity. Foxconn are the third largest tech company in the world, not a tinpot little outsourcing shop. Apple already use other EMS companies for reasons of cost and capacity, but they are all Chinese companies or rely on predominantly Chinese labour. Foxconn's nearest foreign competitor (Flextronics) is just a fifth of the size of Foxconn and sources most of its labour from China.

China has tremendous technical expertise and vast amounts of relatively cheap labour, which is a formidable combination. Singapore, Japan and Chinese Taipei have the expertise, but they don't have enough cheap labour. Thailand and Indonesia have plenty of cheap labour, but they don't have the expertise. China also has superb logistics, which reduces cost and improves lead times.

For the foreseeable future, China is simply unavoidable. Within just a few years, their position as the dominant manufacturing nation will be secondary to their position as the dominant consumer market.

Re: Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face

#77

Post by maaku » Sat, Apr 23, 2016, 5:50 AM UTC

soperj wrote: post #37

soperj wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really since all the components that actually make the phone are also made in China.

Won't let me reply to you, but really if you're making it in the US, Japan, Korea, Taiwan are the same thing as China.

>., Japan, Korea, Taiwan are the same thing as China.

Hahahaha nope.

Re: Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face

#78

Post by sievebrain » Sat, Apr 23, 2016, 7:43 AM UTC

inimino wrote: post #74

codecamper wrote: post #16

I think as the technical part of the population, we have the opportunity now to greatly change the structure of the world. Government can be largely replaced by software. (just thinking long term here) Democracy can be more pure. Corruption can be controlled. Economies can be stabilized and better planned. Environmental resources can be better managed. We've got a lot more work to do past sharing images & allowing ch…

Which functions of government can be replaced by software specifically? Making laws? Interpreting them? Diplomacy?? I think as the technical part of the population we tend to be overoptimistic about technical solutions, which then get steamrolled by the real world's existing power structures.

One obvious one is the gathering of feedback and debate about decisions. Governments barely encourage that today, except when they have dumb petition sites and the like, but there's no real reason why they couldn't.

Re: Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face

#79

Post by sievebrain » Sat, Apr 23, 2016, 7:46 AM UTC

_nedR wrote: post #13

bnolsen wrote: post #6

and this is a reason why china with the current government can never truly be a world leader in anything: Your entire enterprise can be distroyed at the whim of a few unrestrained individuals. Sort of like apple's app store, but at a much bigger level.

Being from india, i have come to the opposite conclusion. Chinese protectionism (aided by the language barrier) has served chinese entrepreneurs quite well. They have their own google. Their own fb. Their own twitter. Basically all services that India doesnt have. The list goes on. These services may or may not be inferior to the original but from an economic standpoint, its good since the money and data flows within…

Served Chinese entrepreneurs but that isn't the same thing as served the Chinese people.

For instance, at the time when Google was kicked out of China essentially leaving their market a Baidu monopoly, Baidu lacked many useful features of Google especially if you wanted to search for non-Chinese websites (e.g. if you were a scientist wanting to do international research). The PRC didn't care. Having a pliable and controlled 'captain of industry' in the form of the Baidu founder was a more important goal to them, than the convenience of their own people.

Repeat that story a million times and you have an economy that looks superficially strong but makes its people miserable .... oh wait no it doesn't, because the censorship and language barriers ensure most people have no idea what they're missing out on.

Re: Apple Services Shut Down in China in Startling About-Face

#80

Post by codeisawesome » Sat, Apr 23, 2016, 9:55 AM UTC

makecheck wrote: post #55

codeisawesome wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why will they do it? Corporate entities like Apple exist to make profits. Change is not on the agenda. It's not healthy to be that hopeful when you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

Profits don’t just show up one day and stay fixed. There is always risk, and always opportunity. This type of move could address both. One risk is that the company’s ability to manufacture may be seriously affected by the actions of a single government. If their current factories were suddenly impacted by a policy decision, future profits would definitely be hurt. By spending money now (that, incidentally, their comp…

I agree that this sounds like something they'd get their gold plated behinds up off the ground for. But let's point that out loud & clear and then when it happens discuss the change it wrought: just a suggestion.