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Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

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Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#71

Post by egeozcan »

Udo wrote: post #41
egeozcan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a Turkish expat (read: immigrant) working in Germany as a software engineer since 7 years. This situation disturbs me two folds: 1) For the reasons you mentioned already, 2) The power gained through this dirty game being used to suppress the already heavily weakened opposition further in my once democratic country (However, I feel more attached to Germany, to be honest).

> However, I feel more attached to Germany, to be honest As a fellow German, it's encouraging to hear that immigrants sometimes still feel they can identify with Germany as their new country, despite all the obvious hurdles. My ex girlfriend's parents moved back to Turkey recently after spending pretty much their entire working lives in Germany, which got me thinking a lot. They said their primary reasons were that t…

I never felt unwelcome, but I think there are some incompatibilities between German and Turkish cultures (and I would rather not generalize them as Western vs Eastern) which one needs to overcome before feeling totally comfortable. Another reason could be overzealous repetition of the word "integration" making the same effect on immigrants that the word "rule" makes on teenagers.

Also, I wouldn't discount monetary, climatic and religious reasons so easily. I'm a theological noncognitivist and have thankfully no serious financial issues but sometimes I think about moving to somewhere with a nicer weather - especially in those depressing-weather days =) The best candidate would be then Spain but well, I really like it here.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#72

Post by wobbleblob »

aurora72 wrote: post #67
wobbleblob wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is the Turkish Putin. I find it worrying. Turkey seemed to be such a success until a few years ago. A booming, increasingly western economy, seeming stability. Somehow you expect dictatorship to come with a revolution, but it seems it can slowly creep up on you. All it seems to take is a strong, popular leader. People think they like strong, popular leaders, but I find them a threat to democracy. They tend to thin…

Putin does not take orders from America or EU, Erdogan does. Putin's got a PhD, Erdogan's got nothin and can't speak any English. So it's ridiculous comparing them two.

What, do they have to be identical to make the comparison? I could refer to Putin as the Russian Erdogan, but Putin was there first.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#73

Post by afsina »

wobbleblob wrote: post #36
elthran wrote: post #4

I wonder how much more of this sort of thing has to go on before the media begins widespread use of the word "dictator" for Erdogan? Illegal criticism, seizing opposition media, violent oppression of minorities, potential election shenanigans - I can imagine next he'll appoint himself President for Life and rename the it the People's Republic of Turkey. I feel the same thing applies to Putin, but we'll never see the…

He is the Turkish Putin. I find it worrying. Turkey seemed to be such a success until a few years ago. A booming, increasingly western economy, seeming stability. Somehow you expect dictatorship to come with a revolution, but it seems it can slowly creep up on you. All it seems to take is a strong, popular leader. People think they like strong, popular leaders, but I find them a threat to democracy. They tend to thin…

Because, it was all fun and games until a hacky "arab spring" like attempt in 2013 summer and later Gulenists decided to take government down at the end of 2013. Even though Government won the battle it was a strong blow. Government went into deep paranoia and now doing things like paranoid fools.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#74

Post by calibraxis »

sydneysider wrote: post #34
matt4077 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just goes to show that politics is really really hard. You never get to hear about the decisions that are easy. If it's reported in the media, it's almost by definition an issue with multiple viable options (or, in this case, only bad choices). Having seen a bit of German politics from the inside, I can assure you that everyone grapples with choices like this. I've witnessed ministers of finance changing their opi…

Blaming this on 'racism' is a poor argument. Maybe it has something to do with the incompatible cultures and values.

If EU were decent, they'd delist Erdogan's enemy the PKK from the terrorist list. The PKK could teach the EU how to improve European society: (http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/30/opinions/rojava-kurds-syri...)

Not to mention the PKK would obviously help end ISIS.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#75

Post by cm3 »

Udo wrote: post #59
cm3 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. Both parties are to blame, but no matter what a Turk does, it will at least be another 50 years before they're accepted as Germans. Just look at the German media. When somebody with a migration background would get some award, they're quick to point out (s)he is from Germany, hiding the background. But when (s)he does something peo…

> That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. I think the experience of this particular group-based conflict varies wildly depending on life circumstances. In particular, living in a nice neighbourhood and purposefully modelling their lives on middle class Germans, my ex' parents didn't see a lot of conflict or direct hostility. But I can still see how they may have felt iso…

To expand on this, it's exactly a thousand little ways that add up. In your day to day business, like an an African American, there is no visible discrimination, but in any case of disagreement one party quickly pulls the you're-from-the-other-tribe card. Goes for both sides. I stood by when a Turkish friend got accused by a German-German to be a sleazy Turk who lives off the state (which he clearly does not), just because he was trying to reach consensus in a conflict. I don't know if I could have stayed calm if it had been me being singled out as a lesser German citizen. In essence, a thousand little and unremarkable experiences do add up, and this is a major reason why the youth would seek refuge in groups that accept them fully but like Neo-Nazi campfire events it's mostly Rattenfaengertum.

I like to think it's all because of missing proper education (not mis-education), which has to start with the parents.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#76

Post by jacquesm »

wayn3 wrote: post #54
egeozcan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a Turkish expat (read: immigrant) working in Germany as a software engineer since 7 years. This situation disturbs me two folds: 1) For the reasons you mentioned already, 2) The power gained through this dirty game being used to suppress the already heavily weakened opposition further in my once democratic country (However, I feel more attached to Germany, to be honest).

It's really weird to think of you as an expat, because we are used to thinking of the turkish in ways that are improper. Most expats are expats because the grass was greener where they went. Why are some of us expats while others are merely "immigrants"? Just using that word makes it seem filthy for people from the middle east to come to europe. How are they different from europeans leaving their countries behind? La…

The difference between an 'expat' and an 'immigrant' is that an expat made their choice from a position of strength and an immigrant made their choice from a position of weakness.

That's really all there is to it, everything else is exactly the same. Though usually people from wealthy countries would not like to be known as 'immigrants', they are expats, of course.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#77

Post by jbmorgado »

Cenk wrote: post #45
sydneysider wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blaming this on 'racism' is a poor argument. Maybe it has something to do with the incompatible cultures and values.

"incompatible cultures and values" are almost exactly the words these racists have always used to keep Turkey out. Britain, Spain, Greece, Cyprus and Slovakia are all compatible, but Turkey is a step too far?

I, for one wouldn't be welcoming a country in EU that is now committing genocide against the Kurds for almost 3 generations.

I also wouldn't be welcoming a country that refuses to acknowledge the full independence of another EU member state (Cyprus).

If you want to play the racism/xenophobia card and pretend that these are not the big issues we have against Turkey in EU go ahead, but I can't tell you that you are not convincing anyone.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#78

Post by gkya »

gokhan wrote: post #35

These days, most forms of criticism of Erdogan is forbidden in Turkey. During the past 14 years, he and his party turned a barely standing democracy with imperfect rules into a semi-dictatorian state with no rules. Police force fully belongs to him and you can derive many similarities with Hitler's early 1930's. There are no mainstream press left daring to oppose him, no prosecutor can question him for his unconstitu…

Erdogan is not an idiot for trying to censor German press. He does know that that won't ever happen because he wanted. But most the voters of his party will be excited to see him shouting at the Germany, the US, etc. This is not that obvious to the opposition. I came to know some supporters only recently, and boy, they have arousals when the guy acts like this. I'm a Turkish citizen BTW.

And see, criticism of Erdogan is not really forbidden. Criticism in its every form is forbidden, if you're powerful enough. Criticise Ataturk, and what happens? Lawsuits, and you'll probably be jailed (1). Say that the Armenian Genocide happened, you'll be jailed. Criticise the party leaders, and they sack half of the party, e.g. the recent MHP situation.

Erdogan does not like criticism, but it's our culture that allows him to actually enforce a surpression thereof. There was a guy who reported his own wife because she spoke pejoratively about Erdogan. Here there still is a godly ruling class, the class of devlet buyukleri. Until they become merely the citizens with the duty to decide for us for a limited time and with full responsabilities, the status quo will go on.

(1) A very recent example is the havoc against a documentary that criticised him.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#79

Post by egeozcan »

roel_v wrote: post #42
egeozcan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a Turkish expat (read: immigrant) working in Germany as a software engineer since 7 years. This situation disturbs me two folds: 1) For the reasons you mentioned already, 2) The power gained through this dirty game being used to suppress the already heavily weakened opposition further in my once democratic country (However, I feel more attached to Germany, to be honest).

"in my once democratic country" The ironic thing is that a few years ago, when the generals still kept the government in check to ensure the secular nature of the Turkish state, the streak in the European left was "Turkey is not democratic because the military has too much power", and the 2002 reforms were heralded as a major improvement. Something about a frying pan and a fire comes to mind...

I actually thought about putting democratic in quotes but then decided that could steer the discussion further off topic. Rest assured that the irony is not lost on me.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#80

Post by Ntrails »

matt4077 wrote: post #26
thirdsun wrote: post #5

As a german I really have to wonder what's wrong with our government if we continue to cozy up to Erdogan's turkey. I really don't think having turkey as a migration buffer is worth paying the price of making the european union look like a club you can buy your way into regardless of ethics. What's the use of values if we're starting to ignore them so easily?

It just goes to show that politics is really really hard. You never get to hear about the decisions that are easy. If it's reported in the media, it's almost by definition an issue with multiple viable options (or, in this case, only bad choices). Having seen a bit of German politics from the inside, I can assure you that everyone grapples with choices like this. I've witnessed ministers of finance changing their opi…

When I have political discourse with people the aspect that makes me the most irritable is the implication that it's simple. Politicians are corrupt, stupid, or both - and if they'd just do "x" everything would be better.

Even when politicians do the right things (get a panel of experts to write a detailed report, and then try to act on the findings) - headlines contain only the barest hint of the depth of the analysis and the findings are chastised by various ill informed commentators who don't even bother to read the damned reasoning.

I actually feel sorry for those trying to govern.

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