Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism • Hacker News Board

Re: Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism

#71

Post by awakeasleep » Fri, Mar 25, 2016, 1:59 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #50

pjmlp wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As Portuguese I can totally relate to what is happening in Angola. Back in the 80 and 90's you could hardly buy real software for home computers, even if you wanted to do so. All tapes and floppy disks that were sold in shops and bazaars across the country were counterfeit. Lisbon and Porto were probably the only two major cities were some shops selling real original software. Only software being sold for the enterpr…

I think it's actually happening all over the developing world. Same thing was (is) happening in Romania. The thinking is: why buy it if I can pirate it? Especially when it costs something like 1% of my monthly income (for just 1 MP3) or 20%-1000% (for software). Even the most ethically minded tend to think: who loses if I pirate it? Most of the times these products come from faraway corporations making billions of do…

Intellectual Property pricing schemes do more than make it hard to empathize, they foster active anger.

So far we've discussed people in less wealthy eurozone countries choosing between paying a significant portion of their income and pirating.

Thats bad, in a way we're describing tools that cost nothing, but are priced in a way that whole economies don't have practical access to them.

It gets worse when you consider places like Africa, where every electronic record of an idea is priced out of reach. Can you imagine if your whole country was basically denied access to reference materials, textbooks, and popular culture? The very ideas that could allow you to work your way out of poverty are withheld.

That is really the boot of the privileged stepping on the neck of the poor. And people feel it and understand that.

Re: Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism

#72

Post by emodendroket » Fri, Mar 25, 2016, 2:00 PM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #67

emodendroket wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, then let's stop pretending this is a benevolent effort by Internet companies to get people on the Internet if that's not what it is. Facebook wants to have it both ways.

And the rampant profiteering entity that is Wikipedia? Are you seriously arguing the Wikimedia Foundation's intentions can't possibly be benevolent because they won't let Angolans turn their server space into a repository of pirated content?

That is a gross distortion of what I said but it's sure easier to argue against!

Re: Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism

#73

Post by notahacker » Fri, Mar 25, 2016, 2:00 PM UTC

robotastronaut wrote: post #30

elcapitan wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that an argument that makes any sense in the context of Wikipedia? Where users actually form the content itself, and where access and content are free anyway everywhere?

I thought it was a liberal use of colonialism (but still fair) until I reached the part in the article about disabling IP ranges for not using the service in ways that align with admin sensibilities. In particular, the reenabling of an account because its contributions were seen as valuable illustrates the power relationships at play here. Angolans don't seem to be able to form content the way they think it should be…

> Over time, it pushes western/northern concepts of knowledge, data organization, copyright, etc onto a culture that didn't ask for it. That's colonialism.

Is the thrust of your argument that Angolans should be deprived of knowledge and data because they didn't ask for it, or that Wikipedia admins should only be allowed to block and unblock people from the same culture as them?

I mean, Angola has had copyright laws for a while now: the idea that the people behind these hacks are noble savages whose fragile culture is imperilled by Wikipedia admins is really insulting and patronising.

Re: Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism

#74

Post by MikeNomad » Fri, Mar 25, 2016, 2:07 PM UTC

zahmahkibo wrote: post #63

masterofcookies wrote: post #18

The author puts encyclopedic knowledge and movies in the same category ("information") and seems to be arguing that they both should be freely available. I'm not saying that current copyright system isn't completely screwed up and in need of reform, but I don't think disregarding content creators is an optimal solution.

When you are a content creator, you create ONE copy. This does not entitle you to ANY other copies. Copying is not theft, but copyright sure is.

A Content Creator is first creating _the master_. Copies are what happens after.

Unless you are talking about serial editions, etc.

Re: Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism

#75

Post by Avshalom » Fri, Mar 25, 2016, 2:08 PM UTC

oldmanjay wrote: post #68

Avshalom wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well define 'forced' in your view please. If I hold a gun to your head and say your money or your life am I reeeallly forcing you to give me you money or are you giving me your money out your own choice? Absent Mindflayers 'forced' is always going to be on a continuum. So if I roll in and say "Here have this access to this thing everyone in the world claims is an economic and social miracle. Free!" and then later onc…

It may "feel" coercive but you didn't make any sort of case that it is. You may view words as having personal definitions that make your point valid but that is a linguistic trick, not an argument.

and by 'personal definition' do you mean 'apparently in agreement with half the posters here and at least one editor and journalist at vice'?

Re: Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism

#76

Post by notahacker » Fri, Mar 25, 2016, 2:13 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #72

notahacker wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the rampant profiteering entity that is Wikipedia? Are you seriously arguing the Wikimedia Foundation's intentions can't possibly be benevolent because they won't let Angolans turn their server space into a repository of pirated content?

That is a gross distortion of what I said but it's sure easier to argue against!

Well if your questioning of the Western web empires' benevolence wasn't in response to my statement that Wikipedia et al shouldn't be under any obligation to accommodate Angolans' copyvios then you sure picked the wrong subthread to express that view! :)

Re: Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism

#77

Post by FussyZeus » Fri, Mar 25, 2016, 2:15 PM UTC

So a serious question for HN: The primary objection seems to boil down to the idea that the people of whatever other country (in this case Angola) should not be beholden to the ideals and laws of the country where these things are coming from (in this case the United States). While I totally agree with the idea that the US's copyright system is in dire need of repair, I can't help but think that saying it's alright for another country's people to entirely subvert the rule of law of another nation will result in nothing but anarchy. I understand the fact that many people in these situations either have no ability to or it's incredibly hard for them to attain these same things legally, and that's terrible (and a huge opportunity to be solved by an enterprising group to be honest), but while I think that the spread of general knowledge such as Wikipedia is a net gain, I don't think that same thing can be applied to Transformers and Naruto.

So the question I posit is this: Does an inability to acquire something legally, for whatever reason, justify stealing it and if so where do we draw the next line?

Re: Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism

#78

Post by x5n1 » Fri, Mar 25, 2016, 2:22 PM UTC

x5n1 wrote: post #47

dnqthao wrote: post #43

The problem is the telco data rate is too high. In Vietnam, we have $3 for unlimited access to 3G data/month (ofcourse the speed is slow). Why didn't some Telco companies jump into the Angolan market?

Mostly because most Telco companies are monopolies that are not run by 3rd world people, and even if they are they still feel the right to milk it for every dollar; eg. Carlos Slim. I think though if China was to get into the game, they might drop the price like it's hot, but it's China.

For instance: http://www.newsecuritylearning.com/index.php/archive/75-chin...

"The key market strategy of the Chinese companies seems to be their competitive pricing, tailor-made for cash-stricken African countries."

"Huawei’s former head of operations in West Africa, Wilson Yang, quoted in a case study on the company by the University of Pennsylvania Wharton School in 2009, says that Huawei manages to achieve tremendous margins while still pricing itself only 5 to 15 per cent lower than its major international competitors, Ericsson and Nokia. ZTE prices 30 to 40 per cent below European competitors."

Re: Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism

#79

Post by ingenieros » Fri, Mar 25, 2016, 2:31 PM UTC

NotMeIndeed wrote: post #57

labster wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The colonialism is attempting to enforce Western mores and laws about copyright on the Angolan population. As well as Wikipedia's own culture which is pretty Western itself. While Wikipedia may be attempting to colonize Angola with some of its community conduct values, the population there has another view of Wikipedia's purpose which might be equally valid.

It's not about Western mores, it's about people stealing other peoples stuff. I'm sure stealing in Angola is not tolerated, stealing from these "pirates" would make them angry.

Didn't Zuckerberg steal the Facebook idea from the Winklevoss twins?? Aren't folks in the west also using platforms like YouTube and Facebook to post copyrighted videos and content??

Re: Angola’s Wikipedia Pirates Are Exposing the Problems with Digital Colonialism

#80

Post by emodendroket » Fri, Mar 25, 2016, 2:37 PM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #76

emodendroket wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a gross distortion of what I said but it's sure easier to argue against!

Well if your questioning of the Western web empires' benevolence wasn't in response to my statement that Wikipedia et al shouldn't be under any obligation to accommodate Angolans' copyvios then you sure picked the wrong subthread to express that view! :)

I don't know what anyone's intentions are but I do know that companies are going around pushing a version of Internet access that serves their interests without bearing much resemblance to the Internet you and I use, and getting out there and telling people "wait a minute, this is our site and you have to follow our rules" kind of spoils the illusion that that's not the case. It seems to me like the Wikimedia Foundation is lending their name to a questionable cause.