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Mosul dam engineers warn it could fail at any time, killing 1M people

theguardian.com

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Re: Mosul dam engineers warn it could fail at any time, killing 1M people

#71

Post by mikecb »

Errsher wrote: post #60
Blaque wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain why a syphon won't work over 30ft?

"This siphon effect relies on atmospheric pressure to allow the pressure and pressure potential energy to drop as the water travels upward inside the sealed pipe. But eventually the pressure of the rising water reaches zero and no further reductions in pressure and pressure potential energy are possible. That failure of the siphon effect occurs when the water is about 30 feet (10 meters) above the higher container. Y…

What about running the tube over the dam and down to a lower level than it originates? Then gravity(?) does the trick?

Re: Mosul dam engineers warn it could fail at any time, killing 1M people

#72

Post by boothead »

LoSboccacc wrote: post #40
foota wrote: post #9

This picture on wikipedia of the dam has a really beautiful contrast between the water and the land around it ( https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Mo... ) Also draws attention to the fact that there's a massive amount of water behind the dam. edit: wiki link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosul_Dam , to save you the effort of googling :)

> formerly known as Saddam Dam such an opportunity lost to call it SadDam

Hussien they didn't think of that?

Re: Mosul dam engineers warn it could fail at any time, killing 1M people

#73

Post by tome »

chippy wrote: post #49

So they were working on fixing this but the west imposed sanctions in the 90s and stopped work. "There is no permanent solution except building another dam,” Ansari said. A second structure, the Badush dam, was started 20km downstream, to prevent a catastrophe in the event of the Mosul dam’s failure. But work on Badush halted in the 1990s because of the pressure of sanctions, leaving it only 40% complete."

Interesting that you can find a way to blame this on the West when Saddam could just have complied with the UN (who imposed the sanctions, not the "West"), had the sactions removed, and given his people a better life.

Re: Mosul dam engineers warn it could fail at any time, killing 1M people

#74

Post by daodedickinson »

yourapostasy wrote: post #34
brohee wrote: post #16

Iraq was altogether a different country when it was built, but infrastructure that can fail killing 1M people unless maintained 24/7 by a 300 person crew sounds like it has way too many failure scenario for comfort. AFAIK you can abandon the Hoover dam and it will still be there in 500 years. It looks like the Mosul dam engineers couldn't achieve remotely the same result given the soil it's built on, but there must h…

> AFAIK you can abandon the Hoover dam and it will still be there in 500 years. Yes, Hoover dam is quite the civil engineering and project management feat. It's structural lifespan in the absence of maintenance (the turbines will go inoperative in months to years in the absence of maintenance) is estimated in the thousands of years range. [1] http://zidbits.com/2013/05/how-long-will-the-hoover-dam-last...

I never got to the Hoover dam in New Vegas... I wonder how realistically it was depicted.

Re: Mosul dam engineers warn it could fail at any time, killing 1M people

#75

Post by salgernon »

acqq wrote: post #58
chippy wrote: post #49

So they were working on fixing this but the west imposed sanctions in the 90s and stopped work. "There is no permanent solution except building another dam,” Ansari said. A second structure, the Badush dam, was started 20km downstream, to prevent a catastrophe in the event of the Mosul dam’s failure. But work on Badush halted in the 1990s because of the pressure of sanctions, leaving it only 40% complete."

Not to mention the war in 2003 and everything afterwards, as presented by Bush (even if he hasn't personally developed the plan), it was "to bring democracy" there. Since the US was effectively for years in charge there, since 2003, theoretically, there was certainly enough time and money to finish the second dam.

  http://the-reaction.blogspot.com/2007/10/god-really-doesnt-like-bush-much.html
The US was trying to provide "aid" in protecting the dam in 2007 - I have no idea if it was taken on as a legitimate project or just wallpaper to say "see how we're helping".

I don't have time for fun conspiracy theories, but I'm sure lines can be traced all around construction of the dam, through the bush family, back to infrastructure, etc.

Re: Mosul dam engineers warn it could fail at any time, killing 1M people

#77

Post by sangnoir »

mikecb wrote: post #71
Errsher wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This siphon effect relies on atmospheric pressure to allow the pressure and pressure potential energy to drop as the water travels upward inside the sealed pipe. But eventually the pressure of the rising water reaches zero and no further reductions in pressure and pressure potential energy are possible. That failure of the siphon effect occurs when the water is about 30 feet (10 meters) above the higher container. Y…

What about running the tube over the dam and down to a lower level than it originates? Then gravity(?) does the trick?

It would only work if the difference between the water level and the top of the wall is less than rouhgly 30ft (as per xkcd). The bottom line is, the siphon will not work if it has a vertical water column taller than 30ft (water weight per unit area becomes greater than opposing atmospheric pressure)

Re: Mosul dam engineers warn it could fail at any time, killing 1M people

#78

Post by jerf »

metafunctor wrote: post #52
thomasz wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't understand why you assume that the risks were not disclosed to the government. In my eyes, it's way more likely that the government decided to go ahead anyway. This was one of Saddam Hussein's prestige projects - telling him that it couldn't be done could've been fatal.

Isn't that a very good reason for not telling the truth to government?

One possibility is that a lot of people did tell the truth to the government, but the government kept asking more questions until it got the answer it wanted. There's always somebody willing to be paid to do that, and it isn't necessarily an indictment against a profession that it doesn't have literally 100% compliance to some ethical standard, on the grounds that I don't tend to indict entire professional fields for failing to accomplish the literally impossible.

Re: Mosul dam engineers warn it could fail at any time, killing 1M people

#79

Post by yread »

Interesting that Hoover Dam mentioned elsewhere in the thread also had problems with geology of the rocks under it and had to be fixed in a hacky way by additional grouting for 12 years after completion

http://web.mst.edu/~rogersda/hoover_dam/Grout%20Curtain%20Fa...

Re: Mosul dam engineers warn it could fail at any time, killing 1M people

#80

Post by adrianN »

rwallace wrote: post #69
adrianN wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What could possibly go wrong?

You (and at least one other) reacted as though I had claimed such an action would come with a guarantee nothing could go wrong. Which is, to put it bluntly, a rather stupid reaction given that: 1. I didn't make a claim. I asked a question. 2. According to the experts, the clock is currently ticking down on a million lives with no idea of how much time is left, so your implied suggestion of doing nothing (which is the…

It just seems to me that using explosives on a structure where collapse is imminent in order to fix it sounds like the most dangerous idea one could possibly have.
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