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London vs San Francisco – back and forth

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71–80 of 132 posts

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#71
post #57

This is like Stalin vs. Hitler London: gloomy, tremendously overcrowded, stressed people everywhere, binge drinking until 11pm and then you're out of luck, spineless european investors, and a cost of doing business so high due to high rents and expenses, that the Startup scene is really a non-starter. SF: The frat boys have won, the nerds are a long-gone memory, the city is eating itself with brogrammers while americ…

> Live somewhere else. There is a catch though - for programmers, London is by far the best paying city in Europe (except maybe Swiss cities).

Pay needs to be compared not at nominal exchange rates but at purchasing-power-parity, including real estate.

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#72
Not sure why there's such a concentration on San Francisco: it's a much smaller place than London (10m inhabitants).

As a Londoner, I've visited tech companies in San Francisco, but also in San Jose, Santa Clara, Palo Alto, Mountain View, Cupertino, Sunnyvale and various other places. They're not all the same.

However, in the UK, a lot of tech companies are similarly spread out around the M4 corridor. Wikipedia says: "this part of the M4 Corridor is sometimes described as England's Silicon Valley" and includes "Slough, Windsor, Maidenhead, Reading, Bracknell and Newbury". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_corridor

That seems to me to be a more useful comparison....

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#73

I visit SF and Silicon Valley fairly regularly from London (where I live so potentially biased). I am always, always, always shocked by the homelessness (and the mental state of those poor souls) in SF. People call London a dirty, unfriendly city but I've NEVER gotten any trouble from any of the homeless people in London apart form the usual begging, yet in SF its pretty much guaranteed you're going to get hassled/sh…

We do manage to spend a quarter billion dollars a year on homelessness in San Francisco, amounting to tens of thousands per homeless person. And that doesn't even count costs that hospitals and medical centers have to spend on ODs, various stabbings, etc. So finances aren't the issue.

If I had to identify the issue, it's that there's a lot of status quo players who comfortably exist in the current state of things (after all, that's a lot of money floating around). The people who suffer worst from the state of affairs (the homeless themselves) pretty much have no political pull or people looking out for their well-being, and the rest of us get shouted down if we complain about having to step over used syringes and human shit as we open the door to our apartments every day ("you think you have it bad? Think how bad they have it!")

Last month, I was walking through SoMa with my boyfriend, and a homeless guy literally came up and punched him in the back of the head for absolutely no reason at all. He walked off, we called the police, an officer came, and his response was basically.. "well, what do you want me to do about it? There's no point in arresting him." Even though the perp was standing on the corner like half a block away.

As a city, we need to decide whether the homeless are autonomous people who can be held responsible for their actions, or whether they are desperate souls who really can't be expected to care or look out for themselves and really don't have any "rights" beyond being treated humanely and compassionately. Only the latter really makes sense in my view, but this in between place of "they can do whatever they want no matter the ill effects on the community, but we're morally required to continue to throw hundreds of millions of dollars at their self-described champions every year with no improvement in the situation" is ridiculous.

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edinburgh here - we've got the hiking, spectacular views (and then some), islands, aquatic beasties, skiing 2 hours away. Even some nice big bridges. You may have a point about the weather though! ;-) [NB Obviously I forgot to mention the history, culture, the festivals, an ancient castle on the plug of an extinct volcano, glorious architecture....] Weather can be a bit grim though.... (and has been particularly mise…

Edinburgh is one of the Great Cities of the world. I apologise for the BuzzFeed, but the pictures are worth it: http://www.buzzfeed.com/hilarywardle/edinburgh-is-the-best

”This profusion of eccentricities, this dream in masonry and living rock is not a drop scene in a theatre, but a city in the world of reality.”

Robert Louis Stevenson

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#75
post #65

London? Manchester is equally viable for business, Bristol has better quality of life and Edinburgh is top for arts. Each for 1/3 - 1/2 of the cost. Even cheaper is Birmingham, and strategically located in the West Midlands. Who needs the rat race in London if you work with computers?

I would agree about Bristol (not that I disagree with the others, I just don't know them that well). I studied there and it is a good compromise between active industry and the laid-back West Country attitude. Working self-employed from London allows me to sidestep the rat-race to some extent however, whilst enjoying a great tech scene and good transport connections.

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#76
post #37
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But people still commute there right? This is the point i'm trying to make, No one (and by that I man a small minority) lives in the city centre because it is too expensive. Applies to any major city on Earth which has suburbs. I imagine the population during the day swells more than 100 fold...

The City of London is a weird ancient administrative division. It's not the whole of the city centre by any means, and not at all comparable to San Francisco.

There aren't too may startups in the Square Mile as it's defined. Just a couple of fintech ones in Canada square.

My point is still the same, not many people live in SF or in London but most of the people there during the day there, commute there.

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#77
post #6

Very interesting read, but also very sad. I think the local authorities in San Francisco are the ones that have to wake up and invest quickly into growing up the infrastructure to accommodate the influx of talent. Otherwise the exodus will hurt everyone and it's already happening (e.g. http://qz.com/627414/tech-workers-are-increasingly-looking-t... )

The housing situation has been in the same state with the same dynamics for over 20 years even before the first bubble started in 2000. The vast majority will simply never be able to afford a house there. The only way that could possibly be attempted would be to build massive condos everywhere like you see in some Asian cities. That would kill the character of SF. No one wants to have a huge condominium plunked down…

> The only way that could possibly be attempted would be to build massive condos everywhere

But that's exactly what they've done in the past, look at the rows and rows of houses that people live in now and are part of "the character" of SF

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#78
Have to say this was a good write up. Having lived in London for 25 years of my life I am now living in Toronto on a holiday working visa for a development company. Never visited SF but the things I've heard about SF seems quite true. This is an Apples and Oranges topic, but being a former Londoner I have to say you will never be short of a job in the tech scene. To some degree I feel in the climate we live in Finance and Technology is what is running the heart of London right now.

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#79
post #69
post #25

So, I moved to SF in 1994 in my early 20's, which means my bona fides are longer than the OP, but still not native. However, from the greater baseline I can say a few things that won't be easily available to someone having lived in SF for a year: 1) public transit has sucked since well before the tech boom. When I moved to SF Oracle was probably the northernmost tech company of note (not counting Autodesk in San Rafa…

Author here. This is fascinating to read! I (naively) assumed that things were better across the board prior to any of the tech booms. I lived in SF and commuted to San Mateo which was a non-trivial trip (coming from the tiny UK) and the BART/Caltrain combination was horrendous for different reasons (Caltrain was unreliable, BART was dirty). I did notice that a lot of the Caltrains were old Japanese trains from the 8…

I don't remember anything prior to the mid-70's but I have a distinct impression that cities everywhere in the western world were much dirtier and crime-ridden in the past (things began to improve around the 1980s, or Rudy Giuliani time).

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#80

I visit SF and Silicon Valley fairly regularly from London (where I live so potentially biased). I am always, always, always shocked by the homelessness (and the mental state of those poor souls) in SF. People call London a dirty, unfriendly city but I've NEVER gotten any trouble from any of the homeless people in London apart form the usual begging, yet in SF its pretty much guaranteed you're going to get hassled/sh…

London is a real city, an Alpha++ City even [0].

San Francisco, and Silicon Valley, have millions of inhabitants but they are not a proper city. They are a collection of a sizable provincial city (SF) and many "suburb" cities.

This, in my mind, makes the most difference.

By the way, the homelessness issue is mostly in SF and East Bay. If you go down the peninsula, you don't see it much.

Oh, last but not least: the weather in the Bay Area is generally nicer.

[0]: http://www.spottedbylocals.com/blog/alpha-beta-and-gamma-cit...

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