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People who make $250,000 or more a year can afford a tax hike.

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Re: People who make $250,000 or more a year can afford a tax hike.

#71

Post by rbranson »

Poiesis wrote: post #66
idoh wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's called a consumption tax, which has a lot of intellectual advantages over the current regime. Income = Consumption + Savings. Right now we tax income, but it's possible to tax consumption instead. That would encourage more saving and less consumption, which is probably a good thing for the country (but probably won't happen any time soon because in the short run businesses wouldn't stand for it).

Would more saving and less consumption be good for the country? I'm not saying it's a bad idea for individuals--it's what we do personally--but it seems like the economy as a whole would stagnate based on my completely unqualified armchair economist opinion.

You are correct. Consumption taxes are, in effect, tariffs on commerce. Theoretically, you should try to push these down as much as possible, so that money flows between economic actors with as little burden as possible. A "solution" to the economic burden of income taxes that increases the overhead cost of transactions and encourages hoarding of money is not a solution at all.

Re: People who make $250,000 or more a year can afford a tax hike.

#72

Post by rbranson »

SamAtt wrote: post #51
encoderer wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you truly believe there's anybody out there who wouldn't work to attain wealth merely because the gov't takes a higher percentage of it? I mean, seriously?

The issue isn't "wealth" as much as it's "more wealth". There's a classic example of a secretary who did her job really well so she got a raise only to find it bumped her into a higher tax bracket and she actually made less money. So from that point on Secretaries didn't bother to excel. This applies equally to the engineer who makes $225,000 and who might be willing to put in extra effort but won't if the reward isn…

This is asinine. Not only will the secretary make more money, but this money will likely be purely discretionary. Her post-tax $80 per week increase isn't immediately going to her rent, utilities, bills, etc, it's going to be extra spending money.

Re: People who make $250,000 or more a year can afford a tax hike.

#73

Post by rbranson »

SamAtt wrote: post #47
gyardley wrote: post #43

People who make $250,000 or more a year can afford to pay more for a lot of things. But if you tried to charge one person more for an identical candy bar or television or movie ticket just because they make more money, everyone would instantly see this as unjust. Why should government services be any different? I'd be a lot more content with differential tax rates if the money I'm saving to start my next business - a…

Your example is bad because people making over $250,000 generally don't use most Government services. A better example would be if the person came in to buy a TV and you forced him to buy a TV, DVR and surround sound system for the guy standing behind him in line.

This assumes that the only way in which you benefit from Government services is by directly using rarely-used entitlement programs (welfare, etc). The rich certainly benefit from an educated workforce that the government bankrolls, roads to drive their cars on, police & fire protection (which is often significantly better in more affluent areas), homeland security, etc.

Re: People who make $250,000 or more a year can afford a tax hike.

#74

Post by bwh2 »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #69
bwh2 wrote: post #31

Doctors, lawyers, and other paycheck people making $250k pay around the 35% rate. They get hit hard. Meanwhile, professional investors earning the same amount pay the capital gains rate of 15%, which is less than a paycheck family earning $80k. I don't want paycheck people to pay more taxes, I want the capital gains rate to go up.

Yeah, let's disincentive the wealthy to invest in new companies that create jobs during a recession. Excellent. I much prefer the idea floated to ditch capital gains altogether for small companies.

So you should be in favor of dropping capital gains to 0% then for everyone, right? Probably income tax too for that matter, because that discourages people from working, and unemployment is the last thing we want to have.

Re: People who make $250,000 or more a year can afford a tax hike.

#75

Post by idoh »

Poiesis wrote: post #66
idoh wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's called a consumption tax, which has a lot of intellectual advantages over the current regime. Income = Consumption + Savings. Right now we tax income, but it's possible to tax consumption instead. That would encourage more saving and less consumption, which is probably a good thing for the country (but probably won't happen any time soon because in the short run businesses wouldn't stand for it).

Would more saving and less consumption be good for the country? I'm not saying it's a bad idea for individuals--it's what we do personally--but it seems like the economy as a whole would stagnate based on my completely unqualified armchair economist opinion.

There would be stagnation if the economy is a closed system. But in a world with multiple economies, the ones that channel income into accumulating more income-producing assets will grow their income faster than the ones that don't.

Re: People who make $250,000 or more a year can afford a tax hike.

#76

Post by Mz »

"Soak the rich" doesn't work. I recall seeing an interview with Ronald Reagan when he was a movie star. He stopped working after a certain point each year because he was taxed so high that he would rather have the free time than more income. Whenever they create luxury taxes, such as on yachts, the rich just put off getting a new yacht. Who really suffers? The working stiffs who build boats. They get laid off.

I don't know what the answer is. But, as I understand it, punishing people who have the most leeway to make other choices pretty consistently fails to get the desired result.

Re: People who make $250,000 or more a year can afford a tax hike.

#77

Post by ryanwaggoner »

bwh2 wrote: post #74
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, let's disincentive the wealthy to invest in new companies that create jobs during a recession. Excellent. I much prefer the idea floated to ditch capital gains altogether for small companies.

So you should be in favor of dropping capital gains to 0% then for everyone, right? Probably income tax too for that matter, because that discourages people from working, and unemployment is the last thing we want to have.

Actually, yes. I prefer a flat tax on consumption.

Re: People who make $250,000 or more a year can afford a tax hike.

#78

Post by gnosis »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #6

Of course they can "afford" it. But so what? Every single billionaire can "afford" to be taxed at a 99% rate. The bigger question: is it in any way fair, just, or moral to tax society's most successful more heavily just for being more successful? EDIT: The other salient question that I forgot to mention is: "why do we need more taxes?" Our government already can't manage what they have with any sort of reasonable eff…

"Every single billionaire can "afford" to be taxed at a 99% rate."

And they should be taxed at a 99% rate, if not higher.

Leave them with a million dollars, tops. That's fair.

Re: People who make $250,000 or more a year can afford a tax hike.

#79

Post by gnosis »

Mz wrote: post #76

"Soak the rich" doesn't work. I recall seeing an interview with Ronald Reagan when he was a movie star. He stopped working after a certain point each year because he was taxed so high that he would rather have the free time than more income. Whenever they create luxury taxes, such as on yachts, the rich just put off getting a new yacht. Who really suffers? The working stiffs who build boats. They get laid off. I don'…

Better to just take their money away rather than tax them on their income or even their consumption.

Re: People who make $250,000 or more a year can afford a tax hike.

#80

Post by gnosis »

grandalf wrote: post #23

Most people in the US pay no taxes at all. The $250K threshold hits lots of hard working professionals and entrepreneurs who are by no means "rich" and who work extremely hard. I'd argue that people earning $250K who are paying off loans and working 60+ hour weeks cannot afford it... and that taxing them is a horrible policy idea, no matter how well it resonates with voters who themselves pay no taxes (or people like…

"Most people in the US pay no taxes at all. The $250K threshold hits lots of hard working professionals and entrepreneurs who are by no means "rich" and who work extremely hard."

Let's see now... when the median family income in the US is $40,000 per year, an individual making $250,000 per year is undoubtedly rich.

They might not be super rich, or even very rich. But they're rich.

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