Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools • Hacker News Board

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#71

Post by Amezarak » Sat, Jan 30, 2016, 9:20 PM UTC

Kephael wrote: post #68

I don't believe there is any shortage of computer science talent. I believe there is only a shortage of students graduating with CS degrees from schools like Stanford and MIT which is what many employers are looking for. NACE figures really seem to indicate we don't need more junior level programmers as 42.5% of graduating seniors majoring in CS did not have a full time job offer (not even in unrelated fields) at the…

It's about supply and demand.

More people who can program means that programming is a less valuable skill and that programmers are compensated less. And cheap labor is the holy grail.

Things like this are pushed by the business elite and then sold to the public by politicians as enabling a middle-class lifestyle. Which will be true, for a little while, in some parts of the country. Already that is barely true in other parts of the country. The next state over from me, junior developer wages start at 25k and rise to the mid-50s as you become more senior. Yes, the cost of living is lower, but not that much lower.

I doubt truly substantive change can be made in the developer market through increased government funding of the curriculum, but they will find other ways.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#72

Post by devsquid » Sat, Jan 30, 2016, 9:25 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #69

How much of this will go to good teachers and interesting programs? And how much will simply be spent on overpriced machines (microsoft) and proprietary "connected classroom" concepts (apple)? You don't need much equipment to teach CS. Basic machines will do. And there is no need to spend any money on software these days (f/oss). I worry that this money is less an educational initiative and more a handout to those co…

Man................. You raise a good point. I read the headline and was pretty stoked to see my country reinvesting in itself. But this is US, fuck.

I think iPads are wonderful devices, but to think a school would buy them for their students just seems stupid and short sighted. I think Chromebooks offer the most compelling class room solution. They are hyper secure, come with a keyboard, and extremely easy to manage and share.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#73

Post by sandworm101 » Sat, Jan 30, 2016, 9:27 PM UTC

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #70

Kephael wrote: post #68

I don't believe there is any shortage of computer science talent. I believe there is only a shortage of students graduating with CS degrees from schools like Stanford and MIT which is what many employers are looking for. NACE figures really seem to indicate we don't need more junior level programmers as 42.5% of graduating seniors majoring in CS did not have a full time job offer (not even in unrelated fields) at the…

Degrees from standford or mit only matter in your first job, or to idiots. There is a shortage of good practitioners. In the startup I worked in, in seattle, we basically failed because we could never hire the 15 more people on top of the 5 we had. We paid market prices plus the usual worthless questionable stock options, but everyone we liked had multiple offers. My new company wants to hire 20 devs a month for the…

> .... only matter in your first job, or to idiots.

Today, every job is your first job. We are all contractors, constantly re-interviewing and justifying ourself to our customers.

And the idiots are in charge. Every founder who needs my help seems to be a 20-something kid who thinks knowledge is something you can pick up at a trade show or week-long intensive at some resort.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#74

Post by Amezarak » Sat, Jan 30, 2016, 9:28 PM UTC

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #70

Kephael wrote: post #68

I don't believe there is any shortage of computer science talent. I believe there is only a shortage of students graduating with CS degrees from schools like Stanford and MIT which is what many employers are looking for. NACE figures really seem to indicate we don't need more junior level programmers as 42.5% of graduating seniors majoring in CS did not have a full time job offer (not even in unrelated fields) at the…

Degrees from standford or mit only matter in your first job, or to idiots. There is a shortage of good practitioners. In the startup I worked in, in seattle, we basically failed because we could never hire the 15 more people on top of the 5 we had. We paid market prices plus the usual worthless questionable stock options, but everyone we liked had multiple offers. My new company wants to hire 20 devs a month for the…

> We paid market prices plus the usual worthless questionable stock options, but everyone we liked had multiple offers.

And they didn't take yours. I don't mean to be critical, but in my experience, when a company says they pay "market prices", they mean the market in their imagination instead of the real market. Maybe the offer wasn't big enough. There was some reason those candidates turned you down.

And sure, maybe you couldn't afford to make bigger offers. Not all businesses are viable. If I could hire labor for $0.50/hour I'd own a business, but I can't.

> emc/vmware

VMWare was in the news recently as cutting 900 jobs. Maybe they are hiring. In which case I expect we would find that expensive senior developers are being laid off and cheap new grads are being hired.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#75

Post by nommm-nommm » Sat, Jan 30, 2016, 9:29 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #46

throwaway420 wrote: post #6

People are intelligent in many different ways and I don't believe that most people have the abstract thinking skills necessary to really thrive in computer science. Forcing everybody to take part in computer science education is probably going to frustrate the hell out of most people (make them feel stupid and annoyed at having to do this stuff) and dumb down the curriculum for the small percentage of kids who would…

So long as this doesn't translate into a grant that confuses CS with Programming I'm all for it. Students already have to learn mathematics. Learning about computation is just as important these days.

>Learning about computation is just as important these days.

Why?

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#76

Post by nommm-nommm » Sat, Jan 30, 2016, 9:32 PM UTC

kunai wrote: post #41

throwaway420 wrote: post #6

People are intelligent in many different ways and I don't believe that most people have the abstract thinking skills necessary to really thrive in computer science. Forcing everybody to take part in computer science education is probably going to frustrate the hell out of most people (make them feel stupid and annoyed at having to do this stuff) and dumb down the curriculum for the small percentage of kids who would…

When we're talking about computer science, we're not talking about learning algorithm complexity theory or binary search trees or discrete math or anything like that — those ideas will always be there for students who want to find them. A basic level of CS involves knowing how algorithms work, and knowing how computers and code function at a fundamental level. It's quickly becoming more and more important to be famil…

I don't need to know the details of how an internal combustion engine works in order to drive so why would I need to know about how code functions at a fundamental level in order to play Angry Birds?

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#77

Post by sandworm101 » Sat, Jan 30, 2016, 9:32 PM UTC

devsquid wrote: post #72

sandworm101 wrote: post #69

How much of this will go to good teachers and interesting programs? And how much will simply be spent on overpriced machines (microsoft) and proprietary "connected classroom" concepts (apple)? You don't need much equipment to teach CS. Basic machines will do. And there is no need to spend any money on software these days (f/oss). I worry that this money is less an educational initiative and more a handout to those co…

Man................. You raise a good point. I read the headline and was pretty stoked to see my country reinvesting in itself. But this is US, fuck. I think iPads are wonderful devices, but to think a school would buy them for their students just seems stupid and short sighted. I think Chromebooks offer the most compelling class room solution. They are hyper secure, come with a keyboard, and extremely easy to manage…

Computer equipment for schools is all about limiting how they can be used. iPad are given trackers. Desktops are locked behind content filters. The last thing anyone wants is some kid running unauthorized code.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#78

Post by kevin_thibedeau » Sat, Jan 30, 2016, 9:41 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #69

How much of this will go to good teachers and interesting programs? And how much will simply be spent on overpriced machines (microsoft) and proprietary "connected classroom" concepts (apple)? You don't need much equipment to teach CS. Basic machines will do. And there is no need to spend any money on software these days (f/oss). I worry that this money is less an educational initiative and more a handout to those co…

The organizations that want to sell common core style instructional materials to school districts. Their lobbyists just wrote them a $4B check.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#79

Post by jt2190 » Sat, Jan 30, 2016, 9:48 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #69

How much of this will go to good teachers and interesting programs? And how much will simply be spent on overpriced machines (microsoft) and proprietary "connected classroom" concepts (apple)? You don't need much equipment to teach CS. Basic machines will do. And there is no need to spend any money on software these days (f/oss). I worry that this money is less an educational initiative and more a handout to those co…

  > How much of [the pledged 
  > 4,000,000,000 USD] will go 
  > to good teacher and interesting programs?

It looks like about 1,000,000 USD will go directly to educators. [1]

[1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2016/01/30/computer-science-...

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#80

Post by chjohasbrouck » Sat, Jan 30, 2016, 9:48 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #69

How much of this will go to good teachers and interesting programs? And how much will simply be spent on overpriced machines (microsoft) and proprietary "connected classroom" concepts (apple)? You don't need much equipment to teach CS. Basic machines will do. And there is no need to spend any money on software these days (f/oss). I worry that this money is less an educational initiative and more a handout to those co…

This was my only thought. When a system is that efficient at squandering resources, you can't fix it by throwing more resources at it.

I'm reminded of L.A. Unified and the iPad debacle:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-ipad-curriculum-...

They bought over 120,000 iPads, they paid above retail, and nobody ever thought of implementing a policy assigning liability or establishing any procedure in the event of damages or theft. To iPads. That were given to the children of low-income parents. In low-income neighborhoods. In Los Angeles.

Another few hundred million dollars went of course to an overpriced and ineffective Pearson curriculum. Another few hundred million to "improve internet connectivity in schools."

All told they spent about $1.5 billion -- not nationwide on colleges, but in just 1 school district (LA Unified) -- and we really have nothing to show for it whatsoever. Apple made some money, Pearson made some money, some company that makes expensive routers probably made some money, and the citizens ... well, not so much happened for us.