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Richard Stallman on Data Autonomy [video]

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Re: Richard Stallman on Data Autonomy [video]

#71

If BTsync ever goes open source or SyncThing ever achieves the quality and functionality of BTSync, then achieving autonomy over our data will be easy. I use BitTorrent Sync with my FreeNas box. It's absolutely amazing. I am able to completely subvert the cloud and have all my data synced across devices. The mobile app is a user-friendly delight. I was able to share 15 GBs of vacation videos with 10 of my non-techie…

Fun fact: An open source[1] version of BTSync called Snakebite was introduced back in 2006, predating BTSync by 6-7 years.[2][3] These days, it's not well known at all, and the Internet seems to have mostly forgotten about it, but there it is. Van Jacobson made a couple of offhand references to Snakebite at a Google TechTalk he gave in 2006.[4] The student who created it went off to do international NGO work or something, but his co-conspirator ended up working at BitTorrent, Inc for a bit.

I don't know what BTSync is like today, but a few years ago when the call for beta testers first went out, its UX as described at the time was more or less the same as the way Snakebite's web interface worked.[5]

1. http://sourceforge.net/projects/tristero/files/Snakebite/

2. http://slashdot.org/story/06/08/29/0441202/new-auto-seeding-...

3. http://www.webknowhow.net/news/news/060829SnakeBiteBittorent...

4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCZMoY3q2uM

5. http://web.archive.org/web/20070320161111/http://actlab.tv/s...

Re: Richard Stallman on Data Autonomy [video]

#72
post #65

I'm sorry, but this is profoundly naive. If the name "Richard Stallman" weren't attached to it, you wouldn't have watched this video. The world doesn't have time for everyone to deploy their own server. I mean, honestly, ask yourself if you even have time to do this, or if it's just yet another project that's going to get piled on top of the Raspberry Pi and Beaglebone Black you have sitting in your projects box. Plu…

Cryptography gives you control, but not autonomy. Open formats and standards that are fully usable on other platforms are also important. Many companies provide "export" functionality, but actually using your own data from some XML file often means a non-trivial programming project. You need formats where you can make them usable easily, using free software (ideally several options), on multiple different kinds of pl…

I agree that preventing node-locking is a critical step in being able to make data decisions. I'm on a bit of a personal crusade against lock-in, actually, but I'd argue that's different from the kind of autonomy (probably better described as agency [1]) we're referring to in this context.

Having control over information creation, retention, and sharing is what I would describe as agency of data possession. Node-locking, open standards, etc, create what I would describe as agency of data use. They're both incredibly important, but you can't use data without possessing it.

[1] Linked because it's an infrequently-seen term outside of philosophy and sociology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agency_%28philosophy%29

Re: Richard Stallman on Data Autonomy [video]

#73
post #65

I'm sorry, but this is profoundly naive. If the name "Richard Stallman" weren't attached to it, you wouldn't have watched this video. The world doesn't have time for everyone to deploy their own server. I mean, honestly, ask yourself if you even have time to do this, or if it's just yet another project that's going to get piled on top of the Raspberry Pi and Beaglebone Black you have sitting in your projects box. Plu…

It doesn't sound like he's advocating that everyone run their own server. He said that if you require your data be available all the time, then you should run your own server; otherwise, you should keep your data on your computer. That being said, I don't see a problem storing data on someone else's computer as long as that data is encrypted and I alone have the ability to decrypt it. Trusting someone to encrypt your…

> Trusting someone to encrypt your data for you when you give them your data is essentially the same thing as giving them access to the unencrypted data.

Absolutely agreed, which is precisely why it's so important to be end-to-end, which implies client-side encryption. Unfortunately, this is a totally different environment than we're used to; it doesn't break the internet, but it definitely breaks the web. Part of the challenge of the work I've been doing on this problem has been to envision exactly how this new thing would work. It's really cool stuff, but it's a dramatic departure from what we're accustomed to.

> It doesn't sound like he's advocating that everyone run their own server. He said that if you require your data be available all the time, then you should run your own server

The problem is, total availability is exactly what we've come to expect from the vast majority of internet use. This is particularly true of the most popular websites. Facebook, google, etc wouldn't work with totally intermittent data availability, but for a growing number of people, they are the internet.

Re: Richard Stallman on Data Autonomy [video]

#74
post #65

I'm sorry, but this is profoundly naive. If the name "Richard Stallman" weren't attached to it, you wouldn't have watched this video. The world doesn't have time for everyone to deploy their own server. I mean, honestly, ask yourself if you even have time to do this, or if it's just yet another project that's going to get piled on top of the Raspberry Pi and Beaglebone Black you have sitting in your projects box. Plu…

It is naive, and it's poorly articulated, unfortunately nearly broaching the 'tin-foil hat FUD, disregard everything he says, that nutter' territory (see: his "cloud" analogy). I like to think of Stallman as Chomsky -- a little out there, really attached to their ideologies, but usually they bring up a conversation that's worth having.

The second I heard this, I as did you thought about the problem of hosting your data at a DC; likewise, I too saw the 'everyone hosting their own server' problem[2]. It's no coincidence that there are at least 3 of us (StravosK and the #letsauth HN crew, you, I) working on this. Many more[3] in fact that we might be reaching the "too many NoSQL solutions out there" problem.

I agree with you I haven't had time to go over your work but consensus algos for removal of data is an impossibility (the second someone has access to the decrypted data is the second it's fully compromised at the read level[1], and only later can one mark the data as unreliable. Consensus to determine what's unreliable is possible, though fraught with peril. There be dragons.) Secondly - and I say this as someone who's working on software similar to what you are writing - in order for crypto to be adopted there needs to be a lot of things. Primarily, there needs to be one, at worst two, solutions - or we'll suffer from complete and total 'choice overflow' (i.e. which NoSQL solution do I use? There are 50!). Secondarily, crypto should ideally be written around known algos, and more importantly, known algo implementations (e.g. libsodium) which are based around concepts and have been heavily audited. Finally, there should be interop between the systems. I.e., keybase.io has already solved the problem of getting techies to adopt asymmetric crypto/figure out how to exchange keys/etc by tying a users FB identity to it. Not the ideal solution, but the best trade off for user adoption. Awareness is hard, but if we all band together (#letsauth + keybase.io + Automattic is a realistic possibility), I don't see it being impossible.

Bottom-line: _Ensure interop with previous implementations so we don't overwhelm the internet with choice, effectively shooting ourselves in the foot_

[1] I can write an IO device driver in a weekend that'll clone bit-for-bit anything that hits a specific directory, segment of memory alloc'd by a process, etc. Once your information is out, it's out for good.

edit: [2] On second thought, not as far-fetched as it may seem. ARPAnet was designed around maintaining network communication in case of nuclear disaster, and if you read the spec sheets that came out during that time decentralization was their solution. Everything from routing (RIP, OSPF, BGP, take your pick) to SMTP (the RFC is rife with the capacity to handle server unreliability) was designed with the intention of dealing with this. Not only that but before NAT took over, effectively every machine was effectively capable of operating as a server. It wasn't until say the mid 90s that the distinction between workstation and server became clear. Effectively, you trusted your sysadmin to not read your mbox/maildir and he acted as your technical agent. When my friends and I were dicking around with BSD and Slackware in middle school and early high school (oh what rebels), we ran our own SMTP's acting as backup MX for each other when our Pentium 2's were rebooted by our parents. This is all a long way of saying, not everyone needs to run a comm-server, just one (or two if you need a 'backup MX') per social network in order to offer their services to people within their social "web of trust".

[3] http://pythonhackers.com/p/redecentralize/alternative-intern... - That's not even the start of it.

Edit2: Yeah, #letsauth on freenode is the defacto standard, thus far. And have an upvote, my good man, for caring enough about security to do something about it, and speak about it's subtleties on a Sunday afternoon.

Re: Richard Stallman on Data Autonomy [video]

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not using social media is considered a badge of honor by many. Sure, but why ? Because it's difficult? Because it's useless newfangled morally-corrupting stuff? Not using the web ... should be considered a commendable feat, too. Again, why ? The web is useful . Is it also commendable to cook all your own food from scratch, do all your laundry by hand, avoid use of electricity, etc?

Mostly because you descend into a circle of procrastination and self-hate. And the funny thing is, they are engineered that way: facebook doesn't want you to keep the connections with your dear ones, all they want is to keep you more and more on their website, scrolling mindlessly. That why I blocked the site in /etc/hosts, and only use messenger.com and pidgin with the new facebook plugin.

I blocked it in /etc/hosts and also deleted my account permanently. After doing this my sense of life's possibilities became enhanced... The world stopped feeling overdetermined, even predetermined, by what was on facebook.

Facebook's seemingly innocuous site has turned out to be an incredibly intricate mmorpg where your character is some uncannily "realistic" version of "you," and whose map slowly begins to dominate your territory. It is an extremely addicting game for some of us.

Re: Richard Stallman on Data Autonomy [video]

#76
post #65

I'm sorry, but this is profoundly naive. If the name "Richard Stallman" weren't attached to it, you wouldn't have watched this video. The world doesn't have time for everyone to deploy their own server. I mean, honestly, ask yourself if you even have time to do this, or if it's just yet another project that's going to get piled on top of the Raspberry Pi and Beaglebone Black you have sitting in your projects box. Plu…

It is naive, and it's poorly articulated, unfortunately nearly broaching the 'tin-foil hat FUD, disregard everything he says, that nutter' territory (see: his "cloud" analogy). I like to think of Stallman as Chomsky -- a little out there, really attached to their ideologies, but usually they bring up a conversation that's worth having. The second I heard this, I as did you thought about the problem of hosting your da…

This is maybe a discussion we should be having elsewhere, but for lack of a dedicated thread somewhere, and because I think it's interesting, I suppose we might as well keep going on the tangent. Moving forward though, is there anywhere dedicated to talking about this kind of stuff, or should we set somewhere up?

> consensus algos for removal of data is an impossibility

There may be a bit of a semantic barrier here. What I mean by consensus removal is "can we, as a society, decide that it's okay to delete this piece of data?" That can be done as a zero-knowledge algorithm. The approach I've taken with it is, loosely speaking,

1. Author Alice publishes (encrypted) data, tells server "don't delete this"

2. Alice shares with Bob; Bob also tells server "don't delete this"

3. Alice tells server "now it's okay to delete"

4. Alice can see that Bob is preventing deletion

5. Alice provides social/legal/political pressure to Bob to remove his hold

6. Object gets deleted

Technically it's implemented in a way very reminiscent to name binding and garbage collection in memory-managed languages. It's worth noting that no, this isn't something that's solvable strictly with in-protocol actions. The external pressure step is necessary to prevent deletion. But that's exactly my goal; we're never going to be able to solve profoundly complex social problems with algorithms.

Re: Richard Stallman on Data Autonomy [video]

#77
post #37

If BTsync ever goes open source or SyncThing ever achieves the quality and functionality of BTSync, then achieving autonomy over our data will be easy. I use BitTorrent Sync with my FreeNas box. It's absolutely amazing. I am able to completely subvert the cloud and have all my data synced across devices. The mobile app is a user-friendly delight. I was able to share 15 GBs of vacation videos with 10 of my non-techie…

In what ways do you find SyncThing lacking when compared to BTSync? I started using it for work (cautiously) a couple of moths ago and have found it to be very similar (with respect to stability and ease of use) with BTSync, if not superior. Note though that I haven't used BTSync since its first days.

The exceptional mobile app (iOS client) is the platform's killer feature IMO. A lot of folks use their phones as their main computer outside of work these days. I couldn't find an equivalent for SyncThing.

Aside from that what I really like about it is:

- consistent UI across platforms

- unlimited folders

- free

- Web GUI for FreeNAS plugin is excellent

- local downloads on the same network are FAST

- share keys without needing approval

- BitTorrent protocol

- "It just works" (it really does)

I have no experience with SyncThing. But to me, open source is the only thing SyncThing has going for it over BTSync. At least on paper.

Re: Richard Stallman on Data Autonomy [video]

#78
post #65

I'm sorry, but this is profoundly naive. If the name "Richard Stallman" weren't attached to it, you wouldn't have watched this video. The world doesn't have time for everyone to deploy their own server. I mean, honestly, ask yourself if you even have time to do this, or if it's just yet another project that's going to get piled on top of the Raspberry Pi and Beaglebone Black you have sitting in your projects box. Plu…

It doesn't sound like he's advocating that everyone run their own server. He said that if you require your data be available all the time, then you should run your own server; otherwise, you should keep your data on your computer. That being said, I don't see a problem storing data on someone else's computer as long as that data is encrypted and I alone have the ability to decrypt it. Trusting someone to encrypt your…

Yes, I wonder if RMS has any objection to clouds where the user data is encrypted end-to-end, like with Tahoe-LAFS. Does that count as running your own server if you have client-side encrypted data through Tahoe backed up on Amazon servers? Or is there too much info leaked, or some other way that Amazon could engage in hostile behavior with respect to data it cannot read?

Re: Richard Stallman on Data Autonomy [video]

#79

Do you have an agenda or you just can't think on your own? By your own description you should up your game a little before writing off some argument as "laughable".

Personal attacks are not allowed on Hacker News. We ban accounts that do this, so please don't do this.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10919602 and marked it off-topic.

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