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Societies with Little Coercion Have Little Mental Illness (2013)

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Re: Societies with Little Coercion Have Little Mental Illness (2013)

#71

Post by Aeolun »

MrTonyD wrote: post #53
FreedomToCreate wrote: post #4

The evidence he supplies doesn't actually prove the coercion is the cause. There is no scientific data presented, just speculative statistics and linkages to possible causes. The neurobiologist D.F Swaab wrote a book called "We are our brains" that talks about the issues outlined in this article and provides scientific proof to show how various illnesses like schizophrenia can come about. Many of these illnesses have…

But we have constructed our economy in such a way that school is required in order to be successful. So, for many of us, the very fact that education is required to be one of the "winners" is coercive.

Not very surprising that some form of education makes you more likely to be successful, but does it necessarily have to be the institutional form of school?

Re: Societies with Little Coercion Have Little Mental Illness (2013)

#72

Post by MrTonyD »

Aeolun wrote: post #71
MrTonyD wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we have constructed our economy in such a way that school is required in order to be successful. So, for many of us, the very fact that education is required to be one of the "winners" is coercive.

Not very surprising that some form of education makes you more likely to be successful, but does it necessarily have to be the institutional form of school?

It's hard not to fall into the trap created by a society with "business values". Should it really be considered less successful to be someone who builds an energy-efficient building which may last for centuries? Should a simple handyman really be paid drastically less than someone with a PhD?

I'm not against differentials in salary. But I do think that our present system is completely messed up.

Re: Societies with Little Coercion Have Little Mental Illness (2013)

#73

Post by meowface »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #65
jessriedel wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm willing to bet that the welfare of the average schizophrenic is quite poor essentially everywhere in the world, a handful of tribes supporting them for myth-related reasons notwithstanding.

While this may be true, hearing that you're useful is important. As someone that society has basically forgotten about, realizing that I won't be useful has recently crushed me. I would not presume to speak for schizophrenics. My quirks are bad, but not that. But the welfare of a person is greatly improved by the feeling that they'll be useful. Deluding yourself into thinking you're useful is much easier when there a…

Excellent point. Many schizophrenics have poor quality of life, but support from friends, family, and society and large can prevent it from degrading further, and even make it a lot better. Some people with schizophrenia can even be relatively functional, even without medication, if they have a good social structure. I could be wrong, but from what I've heard, with therapy and decent support, they can basically recognize their hallucinations and most of their delusions as internally generated and try to ignore them. That's still a terrible way to live, and they also still have the negative symptoms (which even most serious medication can't treat very well, if at all), but schizophrenia isn't necessarily a doom sentence.

And especially with medication, it can be manageable. John Nash, for example.

Re: Societies with Little Coercion Have Little Mental Illness (2013)

#75

Post by Dylan16807 »

andrei_says_ wrote: post #31
FreedomToCreate wrote: post #4

The evidence he supplies doesn't actually prove the coercion is the cause. There is no scientific data presented, just speculative statistics and linkages to possible causes. The neurobiologist D.F Swaab wrote a book called "We are our brains" that talks about the issues outlined in this article and provides scientific proof to show how various illnesses like schizophrenia can come about. Many of these illnesses have…

> as guiding them down a path that has been generally beneficial for the majority, like going to school. Possibly unpopular opinion: school is not negotiable for children and so there's no guiding. It's pure coercion. Also, there's no popular alternative to school so that we can compare enough data and prove that school is beneficial. Unschooling exists and seems to healthier, efficient and beneficial compared to sch…

Efficient?

Re: Societies with Little Coercion Have Little Mental Illness (2013)

#76

Post by malft »

PaulHoule wrote: post #27
wickedgain wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you find out?

23andme. It's funny because I always thought I was some kind of X-Man.

Your mental superpowers are caused by a rare mutation shared with 40% of all people?

Re: Societies with Little Coercion Have Little Mental Illness (2013)

#77

Post by danieltillett »

malft wrote: post #76
PaulHoule wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

23andme. It's funny because I always thought I was some kind of X-Man.

Your mental superpowers are caused by a rare mutation shared with 40% of all people?

Yep. This must be why 40% of the population has a “verbal” intelligence that can’t be measured.

Re: Societies with Little Coercion Have Little Mental Illness (2013)

#79

Post by fsloth »

andrei_says_ wrote: post #31
FreedomToCreate wrote: post #4

The evidence he supplies doesn't actually prove the coercion is the cause. There is no scientific data presented, just speculative statistics and linkages to possible causes. The neurobiologist D.F Swaab wrote a book called "We are our brains" that talks about the issues outlined in this article and provides scientific proof to show how various illnesses like schizophrenia can come about. Many of these illnesses have…

> as guiding them down a path that has been generally beneficial for the majority, like going to school. Possibly unpopular opinion: school is not negotiable for children and so there's no guiding. It's pure coercion. Also, there's no popular alternative to school so that we can compare enough data and prove that school is beneficial. Unschooling exists and seems to healthier, efficient and beneficial compared to sch…

"Possibly unpopular opinion: school is not negotiable for children and so there's no guiding. It's pure coercion."

There are lot's of things which are non-negotiable for children. Things like brushing teeth, going to bed and washing hands after toilet. All of which have some intrinsic value beyond tradition.

Coercion is the action or practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats.. There are other means of guiding children to do something. These include gentle reminders, routines and and just agreement.

And, yes, coercion as well, when all other things fail. Hopefully not that much.

If a child goes routinely to school I would not call this an action under coercion, unless the child has learned e.g. that he needs to go to school so he does not turn into a destitute when he grows up.

"School was a great alternative at a time when it was the only place to get information. This is no longer true."

I don't think there ever was time when "school was the only place to get information". I would claim this is location based (if true even then). I.e. rural villages with low rate of literacy vs. a literate society with access to books.

Or, in pre-literate societies, just having access to a sufficient number of people would probably provide a venue for some information access.

Besides, providing information is not the only function a school has. My kid internalizes all math he is taught immediately and combines all new facts he learns into a logically cohesive model of the world which he has structured in his head.

However, he does need to learn how to live in a society and how to work with other people and school provides a good place for that.

Re: Societies with Little Coercion Have Little Mental Illness (2013)

#80

Post by jmnicolas »

For all we know it could be as well the food : there's a lot of people that believes that highly processed food is toxic for the organism and is the source of most of our ailments.

They're generally heavy on beliefs and light on science, but empirical evidence suggest that they might be right.

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