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Working fewer hours would make us more productive

theguardian.com

71–80 of 253 posts

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#71
post #10

let's start by just cutting aka not doing ALL THE BULLSHIT that is being done. all the needless crap. ding 50% time saved. "what" you ask? take a serious look at your inbox.

If your inbox is full of bullshit, try taking proactive steps to clear it out. If it's a waste of corporate time, you have a basic professional responsibility to do so.

If you fail, it is likely because it wasn't as bullshit as you thought. The cogs may be sexy and obviously doing work, but the grease turns out to be vital too. But my "if" isn't for mere rhetoric... you may well succeed, because bullshit does build up too. The only way to find out is to try. I've had it go both ways.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#72
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I agree that shorter hours are likely to be beneficial, but why are people trying to achieve this by passing a law? > I think that this can be achieved with a softer approach That's a bit of a "trickle down economics" argument. Depending on corporations and owners to offer an option is never going to be as effective as passing a requirement.

> as effective As long as you only care about "effectiveness" of the conversion to smaller working hours — yes. But my point is that we should care about creating an environment where people are actually free to choose how much are they supposed to work. In other words, you argue of how effective we can be in achieving our goal, while I suggest redefining the goal itself.

[deleted]

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#73
post #62

That working fewer hours ==> increased productivity is also a mathematical tautology. Productivity being a function of output and hours, with output generally being somewhat sticky as hours change.

I think your definition of productivity is off a bit. You need to account for "effective" productivity. My hours might be 40+ but how many of those are truly focused and productive? Hence, working less time with (theoretically) better focus and reduced stress/strain would be more productive.

It's not my definition, but an econo-bs definition that involves aggregating $ value output, hours worked. So any study that discusses productivity will always find, at least over any short period, that hours are inverse to productivity as they cannot move in perfect lockstep. However, as an individual, your experience may (and probably should) vary quite a bit from what you might predict in the aggregate!

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#74

Mythical man month actually says the opposite, because even if longer hours have diminishing returns, the organizational overhead from adding people to the team is worse. Maybe the descrepency here is short view (a couple years to build a startup) vs long view (mature organization over an entire business cycle) edit ----- Secondary source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3547965 Quoting the secondary source: "Fr…

Let's remember the context though: That books was about 1960's IBM culture, of legendary stiffness and bureucracy even among contemporary office workplaces, in a project working on a revolutionary mainframe operating system core with innumerable "firsts", in assembly language, at a time where recruits couldn't be expected to have much under their belts.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#75
My circle of friends are what you call professionals. They spend an awful lot of time at work, most of it on looking like they're working.

There's a fair number of jobs where the work itself is not hard or time consuming, but where a culture has grown where everyone needs to justify their position. This skew incentives; if you're a junior, you end up doing a bunch of little things that can pass as a laundry list of things someone had to do. If you're senior, you can gun for getting credit for grandiose sounding things like "strategy". Junior people end up in meetings all day, which if you're senior, you end up calling everyone into. Everyone sits around until late to demonstrate worth.

A lot of these jobs could be done remotely, on any schedule with a sensible number of hours, by just about anyone who can read and write. But because of the culture, they end up being done by the only people who have 100 hours a week, namely singles in their 20s who are just out of university, in some very expensive location. These people then have families to feed and get stuck propagating the same sick culture.

I don't see the law as providing a solution. Nobody enforces the 48 hour contract in Britain. When did you last hear about a City sweatshop being liberated by the police?

The way to change the culture is actually, believe it or not, startups. Yes working hours can be horrible in startups. But in an environment where a lot of firms are startups, there will be more variation in the working culture. Certain firms are already showing the way forward with flexible hours, remote work, and other family friendly practices, without compromising on quality.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#76
I signed up for a gym that apparently went on an initiative to improve its employee culture. The gym is really nice, not as good as Equinox in Palo Alto, but close enough. So one of the initiatives was to close the gym during holiday seasons so that staff could enjoy vacations schedules just like everyone else. Lo and behold, they closed the gym between December 20 and January 5th. Just when I was planning to catch up on things. They can count on my cancellation. What I'm saying - do you want to live in a world that is functioning 80% of time?

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#77
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I agree that shorter hours are likely to be beneficial, but why are people trying to achieve this by passing a law? > I think that this can be achieved with a softer approach That's a bit of a "trickle down economics" argument. Depending on corporations and owners to offer an option is never going to be as effective as passing a requirement.

> as effective As long as you only care about "effectiveness" of the conversion to smaller working hours — yes. But my point is that we should care about creating an environment where people are actually free to choose how much are they supposed to work. In other words, you argue of how effective we can be in achieving our goal, while I suggest redefining the goal itself.

[deleted]

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#78
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you manage to arrange that? I can't imagine going to my boss and proposing I spend 20% less time working for the same amount of pay, and getting approval for that.

The better deal would be working four ten-hour days. Particularly if you have a long commute, this is wildly better than five eights. Eight hours isn't really enough time to get anything done, particularly during business hours.

I have done this before, but arranged my days off to be alternating Mondays and Fridays so that every two weeks I'd get a four day weekend. My bosses were very generous with my schedule. :-)

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#79

I signed up for a gym that apparently went on an initiative to improve its employee culture. The gym is really nice, not as good as Equinox in Palo Alto, but close enough. So one of the initiatives was to close the gym during holiday seasons so that staff could enjoy vacations schedules just like everyone else. Lo and behold, they closed the gym between December 20 and January 5th. Just when I was planning to catch u…

Is this sarcasm?

My gym AND my favorite bar were closed all holiday.

Why would you be at either of those places? You should be enjoying yourself like everyone else during this time.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#80

My circle of friends are what you call professionals. They spend an awful lot of time at work, most of it on looking like they're working. There's a fair number of jobs where the work itself is not hard or time consuming, but where a culture has grown where everyone needs to justify their position. This skew incentives; if you're a junior, you end up doing a bunch of little things that can pass as a laundry list of t…

Or, for that matter, defense contractors.

I'm enjoying having a job where not only do I only have to work 8 hours a day, I'm not even allowed to work more if I wanted to.

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