I know a couple anti-vaxxers, and they are very rational, but just selfish, people: they don't believe vaccines are evil in general, but rather they believe what is, basically, true: it is best of all if everyone else is vaccinated, but you aren't.
I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one
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Re: I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one
#72I almost married an anti-vaxxer. And then I realized there are another couple million people in this country I could marry and not have to fight over that stuff about the rest of my life. It wasn't just vaccines she was worried about. She was also vegan. Only ate organic. I'm fine if those are your choices but I don't want them forced upon me, or a lecture when I eat a hotdog, take an aspirin, or drink milk. Constant…
Re: I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one
#73TL;DR: Anti-vaxxers aren't idiots. They are driven by fear.
Re: I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one
#74I'm so not surprised by the comments here, so far. The core points here are good ones: - In a fundamentally emotional argument, you 'win' with empathy, not by beating people over the head with the same (very reasonable) arguments they've heard a hundred times. - Vaccines are certainly effective, they are the correct choice, but there are also absolutely legitimate reasons to distrust the medical and scientific argume…
It should be addressed with legislation making it a felony not to vaccinate your children by a reason early childhood age (e.g. 6 years or something), whether put in public school or not, and making proof of vaccination a requirement for federal aid for that person (e.g. student loans or assistance). There are certain things that should be up for public debate and discourse, left to the courts, or up to personal pref…
What you propose is legislating the greater body for the unsavory actions of a minority while it is becoming more common with more and more federalization of law it always conflicts with personal freedoms and leads to a less free society for all. Someone would find an action that you do at some point in your life, unsavory and illogical and quite possibly harmful to yourself or others, under what you propose we could just enact legislation for the greater good. This runs contrary to the spirit of the law of the land and ends up somewhere closer to fascism. Please note I am not implying that you are advocating fascism but taking away peoples choice to self determination even for their children certainly starts to lay the foundation for a very different society.
What you propose is a slippery slope on the path to the state raising children which in my opinion is a far scarier reality. Life involves risk, and sometimes it involves risk for children. I think it is fair to say if one has made a life choice that puts other kids at risk their kid cannot participate in activities that could place other kids at risk but it is a whole different level to mandate that we start making medical decisions for parents. If we do we should legally acknowledge that parents or at least the legal concept of guardianship as we know it no longer exist.
Re: I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one
#75This whole discussion reminds me of seat belt law debate: Pro-seat belt: "It will save hundreds of lives and reduce injuries" Anti-seat belt: "What if an accident pushes my car into the water and the seatbelt jams and my child drowns." Make it the law and put parents in jail. Better yet, since the first confrontation over vaccinations will be when the children are young, put them up for adoption. Lots of vetted, rati…
There are laws that you aren't allowed to wear your seatbelts in certain situations; e.g. on some ice roads in some countries (Estonia). Not that this is very relevant to anti vax.
I agree though, there are children with compromised immune systems who CAN'T take vaccines. And anti-vaxxers increase the risks to those children.
Re: I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one
#76How do you convince your wife when her kid got sick and went into a seizure after a vaccination. Especially when the CDC recommends against it for your child: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/should-not-vacc.htm then what do you do about the other child?
Your question is analogous to: "If you told you kid it's ok to go out and play, and while outside a car hit him, do you let the other child ever go out again?" probability wise.
Re: I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one
#77The author comes across as a bit of an idiot too in the article. Basing his opinions on blogs and a particular internet community. Rather than acquiring an understanding from the scientific source material on these issues.
I expect that approximately 100% of the people who argue for vaccinating children are doing exactly the same thing. The number of parents personally familiar with the scientific evidence and qualified to make an independent judgement is probably tiny.
This then leads to the argument that non-experts should respect the scientific consensus, but then how does a non-expert evaluate the credentials of a commentator to determine whether they are in fact an expert and part of a real scientific consensus? Bad science abounds in the media, and there is a lot of money to be made from peddling it, and some of the people presenting it are very convincing because that's what they do.
This is a fundamental problem with any debate about policy based on scientific merit: at some stage, there is always a degree of trust involved for anyone who is not personally an expert in the subject matter, which in practice means almost everyone. This opens a gap for the critics and sceptics. And crucially, this is a legitimate concern. There is room for the "science" to be wrong, and sometimes it has been.
The rational point is that it is far more likely that a consensus among large numbers of people who are probably scientific experts will be correct. When that is the best information we have to go on, as it nearly always will be, we should probably make our decisions consistent with that consensus rather than in opposition to it to give ourselves the maximum chance of a positive outcome.
Re: I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one
#781) Anti-vaxxers aren't paranoid misfits TL;DR: Anti-vaxxers are normally rational people, but with an incorrect view on a topic.
2) It's all about fear TL;DR: Anti-vaxxers hold their view out of an irrational fear, similar to arachnophobia, and simply using reason and facts won't work, as they're not in a frame of mind to accept them.
3) If you think something is dangerous, it's logical to avoid it TL;DR: Though their starting premise is misguided, an anti-vaxxer's reaction to vaccines is logical. Thus, there is an emotional component in the initial premise that, when confronted with facts and reason, lead them to dig their heels into the sand and hold the line instead of thinking logically.
4) There's an industry supporting anti-vaxxers — and we're driving them into its arms TL;DR: There are people positioned to exploit fear, and it is these people who are validating the anti-vaccination movement, despite various ethical concerns, and allowing it to thrive. Without these people, the movement would have died out shortly after it had started. Also, anti-vaxxers seeks support from loved ones and people who have experience with the subject matter to validate their worldview.
5) Changing someone's mind doesn't just take love. It takes empathy. TL;DR: Anti-vaxxers come to their erroneous conclusion about vaccinations after bad experiences, not logic. The road to change minds is through empathy, not attack.
He makes an interesting quote in his article: "The anti-vax position was not a deal breaker for me, but suggesting that we should expose her daughter to grave dangers for no good reason was a deal breaker for my wife." This reasoning could (and arguably should) be applied in reverse: suggesting that we should expose children to easily preventable dangers (various potentially lethal childhood illnesses) for no good reason should be a deal breaker in any kind of relationship. While empathy could change an anti-vaxxer's mind, the dangers of having children unvaccinated while this strategy is employed is too risky, so a more direct approach, in my mind, must be taken. It's like trusting someone to drive you to the store while they're very drunk when it's better to never get into the car and to stop them from driving, if possible.
Likewise, he compares the anti-vaxxer movement to arachnophobia. His conclusion to drop his stance on vaccination doesn't logically follow from this comparison, however, as arachnophobia is a mental illness, treated by certified therapists when the phobia starts preventing people from living their lives or driving people to impact other people's lives. The logical conclusion to this comparison is to treat the anti-vaccination movement as a mental illness, encourage anti-vaxxers to seek out certified therapists, and enact laws to prevent people who don't vaccinate their children or themselves from spreading easily preventable but potentially life and quality of life threatening diseases.
Re: I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
>both medicine and the science behind drugs have been spectacularly wrong more than once On the other hand, non-medicine (alternative medicine) and non-science (pseudoscience) have been spectacularly right more than once. That's the point. Agree with empathy angle and need for emotional arguments, though.
Can you give some examples of what you're thinking of here?
Re: I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one
#80The author comes across as a bit of an idiot too in the article. Basing his opinions on blogs and a particular internet community. Rather than acquiring an understanding from the scientific source material on these issues.
Basing his opinions on blogs and a particular internet community. Rather than acquiring an understanding from the scientific source material on these issues. I expect that approximately 100% of the people who argue for vaccinating children are doing exactly the same thing. The number of parents personally familiar with the scientific evidence and qualified to make an independent judgement is probably tiny. This then…
This is an excellent and pertinent point. As the article delved into, a lot of these people are big followers of "alternative medicine", which is a field chock full of con artists and shysters claiming to be "experts". If someone is gullible, then they're easily convinced by these fraudsters that their "treatments" are real and work, even though it's just the placebo effect.
I'm just like the article's author: I was married to someone like this. My advice if you find yourself in a relationship with someone big into anti-vax or alternative medicine: GET OUT. If you have a logical worldview that isn't full of conspiracy theories, and you believe in things supported by real evidence, and your partner doesn't, then the disagreements over this stuff are going to tear your relationship apart. Just the sheer amount of money my wife spent on all that crap was one huge factor in our marriage failing.