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My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

theguardian.com

71–80 of 99 posts

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#71
post #43
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Teachers are supposed to be experts at matching students with explainations of concepts. I thought teachers were supposed to be experts in their field of study that have a desire to pass that knowledge on to those that are interested. Not everyone will have the capacity for learning those things. As an example, I love art but despite years of trying both books and classes, I just cannot bring the images in my mind i…

The thing to understand is that these students clearly don't inherently care for the class. The graduation requirements list it, and either they care about the subject matter and can learn it in better quality and better time on their own, or they don't and they're not paying to learn. Somehow in between the "younger generation" and the previous one, it became impossible to get a middle-class job without a college de…

> it became impossible to get a middle-class job without a college degree

Not true, I did fairly well as a software engineer after dropping out of school, and having finished my degree it hasn't made any difference in my day to day (except people think I'm a decade younger than I actually am based on the date on my resume).

> And the world does owe people a fair chance at a living. To the extent that that involves a useless college degree because people want the credential, yes, the world owes them that.

The world owes you exactly nothing.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#72
post #55

My lectures are designed to supplement learning that my students are expected to have done prior to class. The lectures are a summary of the material, with worked examples, a chance to ask questions to clear up misunderstandings, and for discussion of key concepts. Lectures are attended by dozens of students, so they cannot be a personalized tutorial service. That's what office hours are for. My best students don't u…

Then change the fee schedule to reflect this. The problem I have is that your system does not serve 2/3rds of the customers. Your best students are pretty much self-taught , so why do you charge them for all of the your time. The poor students do not show up either, so why are you charging them for your time as well? I am not critizing your specific method of teaching, just your fee schedule. You admit that your serv…

I don't admit anything of the sort; you came up with the 2/3 figure.

My best students are pretty much self-taught within the academic environment, which offers them a lot more than any series of MOOCs could.

Maybe around 1/4 of my freshman students shouldn't be in university, and most of these leave during their first year. I'd be happy if admissions standards were increased, as it would be better for all concerned if individuals lacking the necessary ability and motivation didn't waste everyone's time as well as their own money.

Once again, it is the responsibility of each potential student to determine whether they should accept a place at a university, not mine. As long as they're here, I'll give every student as much assistance as I can, but some of them can't or won't be helped.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I tend to downvote people who whine about karma. I can get enough of that crap on reddit. Someone can disagree with you without having to get into an extended debate. That's why the voting buttons exist.

No, that is exactly and perfectly wrong. Downvoting because you disagree is against the rules. As a student I wholeheartedly agree - I have classes now where a tutor comes in, tosses a two page pdf with an assigment in Labview (which we were never taught or even got to use before) to do during class and ITS GRADED right after that class. He also throws a hissing fit every time anyone dares to ask him for help.

I'm sure you've brought this behavior up with the professor though, right?

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#75
post #68

Giving a German view on that, where tuition is free: In Germany imho sometimes the problem is that professors don't really care much about the teaching, because they actually want to do research and teaching is just an nuisance for them. But that it is kind of okay, because you don't pay anything and you can always skip classes, as attendance is not mandatory. So basically if you don't learn shit in that lecture just…

Context: I attended a small (1500 students, no grad school), private (read: expensive), liberal arts college from 2004-2008 and dropped out. I finished my degree in 2014 at the same institution because I was so close it was pointless not to.

> I was under the impression the problem of shitty professors / lectures, who don't want to teach or are bad at it, was solved in the US because people pay a shitload of tuition.

Some people pay a shitload of tuition, yes. It's somewhat like buying a car (in the US). Nobody pays sticker price. There is a lot of very cheap money floating around (gov't loans, grants, scholarships), which is keeping the price artificially high.

The sticker price of my school was about $35k/yr, or $140,000 for a degree. I left in 2008 with about $22k in loans. The rest was grants and scholarships. I did well in HS but not so well that you would immediately think people would throw $120k at me for school. The important thing here is that the school actually received the $140k. They've got zero incentive to control costs.

> If the university has bad teaching, people don't go there and the university doesn't get money.

This is true to an extent, but I had no instructional interaction with the professors prior to my first day of classes. I spoke to a few as a visiting HS senior, but even the professors were in sales mode at that point.

> It might be just a small part of their workload and they actually want to just do research but their university makes money with it.

It's misaligned incentives (mentioned in greater detail elsewhere in the comments here). The professors do not get any more money if all of their students understand the subject perfectly and go on to become professors themselves compared to if half the class fails. The only mitigating factor to this is some universities place promotion/review weight to student evaluations, but even then it's only an issue until one receives tenure.

My college was primarily a teaching college, and approximately 2/3 of the professor workload was teaching, grading, and related. Some of the larger survey classes would have a few TAs that would do reviews for smaller groups, but a TA leading a class was unheard of. There was no graduate school (they've since added a few Master's programs), so the TA's were just other undergrads who had gotten A's in the course in previous semesters.

> If their university gives them too much workload and not enough time for teaching, the system of the university is broken.

I don't think anyone will disagree with you here :)

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#76
post #51
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you go to your doctor and say "I have a cold, fix it" then you are going to be disappointed no matter how good your doctor is. ("With proper treatment, a cold will clear up in a week. Without, it may take as much as seven days.") If you go to your teacher (at whatever level) and say "I want to become expert in your field without either working very hard or having a great deal of natural talent" then you are again…

> A student who does nothing beyond turning up to most of the lectures Then adjust the cost of the course to reflect that reality. If the teacher is admittely doing zero work to help this student, then why does it cost so much. Teachers in this case are QQing all the way to the bank. This is just a smoke screen thrown up to distract from the fact that these students that don't work hard are being defrauded left and r…

You're radically overestimating how much teachers are paid. I lectured at a Canadian university and was paid $7k per semester long course with about 100 students. I could maybe handle 2 courses per semester (after some time to get my lectures dialed in), which works out to $42k/year for an engineer with a graduate degree.

If anyone is QQing to the bank it's not your lecturer.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#77
post #8

tl;dr: professor has a few bad experiences with students and, combining them with a choice anecdote from an unnamed colleague, proceeds to generalize to not only the (presumably) hundreds of students he has taught, but students, everywhere, in general. Having been a student myself, I could recount the time when a professor chose to replace her all twelve of her lectures with student presentations, then tested us on e…

> I could recount the time when a professor chose to replace her all twelve of her lectures with student presentations, then tested us on entirely untaught content; or perhaps the other time when submitted assignments and tests were not marked or discussed, at all, so that the only feedback was a numerical result at the end of the semester.

> I could choose to say that this is symptomatic of a system where research is king and teaching is for peons and undergraduates are lower than dirt.

> Or I could choose to say that perhaps some professors are just bad at their jobs. Or, even, they just had a bad semester. The advantage is that I could do this without cherry-picking the outliers.

Which is to say, you just did do all those things; you were just passive-agressive about it.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#78
post #71
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing to understand is that these students clearly don't inherently care for the class. The graduation requirements list it, and either they care about the subject matter and can learn it in better quality and better time on their own, or they don't and they're not paying to learn. Somehow in between the "younger generation" and the previous one, it became impossible to get a middle-class job without a college de…

> it became impossible to get a middle-class job without a college degree Not true, I did fairly well as a software engineer after dropping out of school, and having finished my degree it hasn't made any difference in my day to day (except people think I'm a decade younger than I actually am based on the date on my resume). > And the world does owe people a fair chance at a living. To the extent that that involves a…

Since you are nitpicking my meaning of "impossible," let me rephrase. It is generally far more difficult, for most people, to get a middle-class job without a college degree than with one, and it generally does not matter if they learned job-relevant subject matter in that degree.

The fact that you, personally, did so is simply an anecdote.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#79
post #43
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Teachers are supposed to be experts at matching students with explainations of concepts. I thought teachers were supposed to be experts in their field of study that have a desire to pass that knowledge on to those that are interested. Not everyone will have the capacity for learning those things. As an example, I love art but despite years of trying both books and classes, I just cannot bring the images in my mind i…

The thing to understand is that these students clearly don't inherently care for the class. The graduation requirements list it, and either they care about the subject matter and can learn it in better quality and better time on their own, or they don't and they're not paying to learn. Somehow in between the "younger generation" and the previous one, it became impossible to get a middle-class job without a college de…

I have no degree. I attended exactly two of the three semesters of college for which I paid. I make a very nice living running servers and writing code at my company. Before this, I have worked in construction and as the guy under your car in one of those quick oil change places. I've been an outboard mechanic. The world owed me nothing. I have made my own way and earned everything that I've gotten. I respect hard work and I understand that I will sometimes fail. I learn something from every experience.

I'm sorry but your attitude here that the world owes you _anything_ just goes to further prove my point. Life is not fair. It never has been and never will be. You can sit there feeling sorry for yourself because the world treated you unfairly...for which will get you absolutely nothing...or you can go out there and do whatever you need to do in order to make it through this day so you can try for a better day tomorrow. The onus is on you and not the world. You want something better then show the world that you will work for it.

Two things come to mind for me in this:

1. The "younger generation" is going to have to learn to take responsibility for their failures as well as successes. There seems to be a real problem with the former.

2. To use the words my father repeated to me almost daily during my teenage years when we worked together: "If you aren't going to give it 120% in whatever you do, don't even bother getting out of bed."

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#80
post #10

I am not paying for a "chance to learn". I am paying for a self-professed expert in pedagogy, whose has spend devoted their proffesional life to the art of shoving information into arbitrary people's heads. I go to the doctor because I want a professional with knowledge of diseases to fix my cold, not the crystal homeopathic healer that lurks on the street outside my apartment. Teachers are supposed to be experts at…

There's a gaping hole in your argument where you don't acknowledge that a student has any responsibility.

Example situations where the low grade is absolutely the student's fault:

- The student doesn't go to class - The student falls asleep in class or otherwise doesn't pay attention - The student doesn't understand a part of the course and doesn't do anything to clear up their understanding (you can't honestly expect a single explanation to give all (often) 150+ students 100% clarity) by emailing or speaking to staff - The student disrupts the rest of the class and is removed from it - The student doesn't turn in papers for avoidable reasons

It's similar to a doctor. If you go to a doctor and don't follow instructions or give them correct information, they can't do their job and fix you. It's not their fault if you don't take the drugs they prescribe you.

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