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Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

mikehadlow.blogspot.com

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Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#71

Post by paulcole »

logicallee wrote: post #41
paulcole wrote: post #27

There's a big gulf between knowing how to code and working as a professional software developer. I'm a writer for a marketing agency, but I write Google App Scripts, JavaScript, and PHP on a regular basis to automate tasks, try out ideas I have, etc. There's no way I could work as a professional software developer, but I know how to code enough to help make my professional/personal life easier and more fun. Isn't the…

>There's no way I could work as a professional software developer, I'll hire you.

Here's what made me say that (and it wasn't humblebragging):

I've worked in a marketing role in a software company and realize that I don't have the understanding of how to contribute in a meaningful way to a team-based professional programming project.

My workflow isn't ideal: bang my head against a wall, Google my way out, copy/paste/edit until things work, and move on.

Because I'm generally on a mission to get something done, I don't have the patience to name variables in a meaningful way or write clean code. I'm basically programming to accomplish something in the moment and it works for me.

To paraphrase the Woody Allen quote, "I'm not sure I'd want to work anywhere that would hire me as a programmer." :)

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#72

Post by JoeAltmaier »

mildbow wrote: post #59
mattmanser wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, yeah, you could work as a professional programmer if you wanted to. You can code. The whole point the article is trying to get across is that a lot of people are simply unable to learn how to code. You've learnt. You CAN become a professional. You just don't realize it. The step you've taken is the hard one. In fact, there's another big dirty secret in programming. A load of professional programmers aren't able…

Random dude who learns basic scripting says he's not good enough to be a software dev -> people chime in disagreement. But, try to actually take them up on the offer and you'll probably find yourself jumping through programming interviews that will scoff at your basic skills. Most of us got started writing little scripts. It's definitely a great start. To say that he could work as a professional programmer now is rid…

'A job' is not necessarily a job at a large software firm. How about supporting your local medical offices (dentist, optometrist) by remote-monitoring their servers, installing updates etc? That's a job. Or updating web order forms for the local shops for the holiday specials?

There is an enormous spectrum of software to be done. And not enough people to do it, currently. So getting a job could be very easy.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#73

Post by fmstephe »

wawi wrote: post #10

On the one hand, I wish to concede defeat in this argument, that indeed this is a very British argument being made, one that is, essentially, "an excuse for class", whereby a subject requiring high-order adept facilities is available only to "a select few", 'because class system'. On the other hand, beyond the borders of the colonial-imperial mindset, we have kids in the slums who - precisely because they were not gi…

I suspect that you have had very similar experiences to the author. The author is quite clear that education is no indicator of ability to program.

I think the author would be very happy admit your hard working very good developer friends into the set of 'good programmers'.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#74

Post by fsniper »

In this matter, I'm not with the "everybody should know to code" camp. I believe people, ordinary do not need to do any task with computers or even if they do, they need not to teach it to the computers.

This movement will create a few good coders from children, but also make more haters against the profession.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#75

Post by Alex3917 »

bovermyer wrote: post #67
Alex3917 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Each of these jobs probably have a particular set of paths that lead to them. I think the commonality is that at the minimum you need to be able to read English at a proficient level, which weeds out the vast majority of American adults.

Did you seriously just suggest that the majority of American adults are illiterate? I'd love to see the source you base that claim on.

> I'd love to see the source you base that claim on.

Like the government's official data on adult literacy?

http://nces.ed.gov/NAAL/PDF/2006470.PDF

After 1994 they got rid of the 'advanced' literacy ability category, corresponding to roughly the level academic journal articles are written at, because not enough Americans qualified. So currently the top literacy level is 'proficient', which is roughly the minimum level you'd need in order to teach yourself to become a competent developer. (That's basically the level you need to read a newspaper and compare and contrast the information presented in two different articles.)

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#76

Post by geebee »

vinceguidry wrote: post #42
acconrad wrote: post #17

Hard programming is harder than you think. Coding schools are mostly teaching CRUD web development and a watered-down version of data science aimed at business analysts, which isn't that hard. You're not going to get folks lining up to take an embedded systems, graphics, or compiler bootcamp.

Web development (it's more than just CRUD) is hard. Even with the best web development framework, the state of the art in tooling, you're looking at at least a year of focused study before really being able to take a job. It doesn't require hard math, but it's still hard in that the sheer number of languages, tools, best practices, technologies is daunting. And they keep changing. My father is an electrician, after l…

I agree, strongly. Lately, I've been involved in the shift from server-side MVC with a sprinkling of javascript to web services API with javascript based front end. I'm inclined to to with rails-api, and probably Ember on the front end, but it's a moving target, and I tend to agree with people who say this has led to a very complicated stack with too much duplication (routing on front and back end, and so forth). But should I use React, Angular? Should I write the backend in node? My current guess that the trend toward "isomorphic" systems will probably resolve this, but again, that's just a guess.

What can I say? There is a tremendous amount of reading, trying, cursing, debugging, evaluating, forecasting what will be valuable later. Some of it is churn, true, and it is unnecessarily complex, but what isn't? (tax law, anyone?) Simplifying things is in itself a huge organizational, social, and mental challenge. All in all, it's pushed me past the edge of my abilities, and I constantly feel very ordinary in this field.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#77

Post by mildbow »

paulcole wrote: post #27

There's a big gulf between knowing how to code and working as a professional software developer. I'm a writer for a marketing agency, but I write Google App Scripts, JavaScript, and PHP on a regular basis to automate tasks, try out ideas I have, etc. There's no way I could work as a professional software developer, but I know how to code enough to help make my professional/personal life easier and more fun. Isn't the…

There are people saying they will hire you. See how much they want to pay you and if the position sounds like a good stepping stone. See if you can talk yourself into giving it a try.

Personally, I think you probably aren't ready to actually interview and land a dev job. But, if people are saying they would hire you[0], this is a great chance to take them up on their word and in doing so, get your foot in the door.

[0] I don't believe them. You should take them up on it just to see what happens either way :)

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#78

Post by sbov »

mattmanser wrote: post #35
paulcole wrote: post #27

There's a big gulf between knowing how to code and working as a professional software developer. I'm a writer for a marketing agency, but I write Google App Scripts, JavaScript, and PHP on a regular basis to automate tasks, try out ideas I have, etc. There's no way I could work as a professional software developer, but I know how to code enough to help make my professional/personal life easier and more fun. Isn't the…

Err, yeah, you could work as a professional programmer if you wanted to. You can code. The whole point the article is trying to get across is that a lot of people are simply unable to learn how to code. You've learnt. You CAN become a professional. You just don't realize it. The step you've taken is the hard one. In fact, there's another big dirty secret in programming. A load of professional programmers aren't able…

There's a dirtier secret:

A load of professional programmers are not able to make new programs.

A load of professional programmers are not able to modify existing programs.

And a load of professional programmers are not able to finish programs.

Almost no-one is good at all 3. Most are extremely bad at least one of these.

Lots of people who are "good" at making new programs are actually pretty bad.

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#79

Post by Kurtz79 »

tsunamifury wrote: post #38

" The majority of the population can not learn to code at all, no matter how much training they receive." What an arrogant, false, and self-aggrandizing fiction. Stop over-valuing yourself -- coding isn't some ultra-difficult natural selection process equivalent to winning an NBA Championship. Designing complex services, scaling and maintaining them on a server stack is hard. Developing, training, and shipping a usef…

I agree that the statement "The majority of the population can not learn to code at all" is very questionable: what is the basis of that assumption ?

Are there studies that took n people from different backgrounds, completely unfamiliar with coding, and tried to teach programming over the course of several weeks/months, and found that the majority were not able to get to an acceptable level ?

Re: Learn to Code, It's Harder Than You Think

#80

Post by mildbow »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #72
mildbow wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Random dude who learns basic scripting says he's not good enough to be a software dev -> people chime in disagreement. But, try to actually take them up on the offer and you'll probably find yourself jumping through programming interviews that will scoff at your basic skills. Most of us got started writing little scripts. It's definitely a great start. To say that he could work as a professional programmer now is rid…

'A job' is not necessarily a job at a large software firm. How about supporting your local medical offices (dentist, optometrist) by remote-monitoring their servers, installing updates etc? That's a job. Or updating web order forms for the local shops for the holiday specials? There is an enormous spectrum of software to be done. And not enough people to do it, currently. So getting a job could be very easy.

Sure.

But, the point is a "professional software development job", not "something to do with computers"

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