Earlier quoted context omitted.
The alcoholism and poverty on Pine Ridge and Rosebud are no joke. I think there's a genetic component and a cultural component that together almost guarantee it; both drivers are exacerbated by the insular nature of their community. I volunteered with the Habitat chapter near there. They could not build on the res because any houses under construction would be stripped of their copper wire and plumbing before they co…
> What they really need is a big employer to set up shop there: rising tide floating all boats, etc. The casinos on some reservations have had a positive impact. At least there is a good employer in the area for those wanting a regular life. In my opinion (as an outsider) the best thing for them is to go to college off the reservation.
Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k
71–80 of 94 posts
Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's just a short drive to Wounded Knee; that would make it a convenient tourist stop all its own. "On your way to Wounded Knee, stop and stay at the haunted bed and breakfast in Swett!"
I would caution against using a massacre in advertising particularly while implying a haunting.
Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm suggesting that in all previous attempts to reach the state you consider heretofore unreached, the states passed through have highly undesirable consequences. The uniformity of this result is striking and the consequences grave. I'm suggesting that attempting to create a Communist society is a really bad idea . Every previous attempt to do so has led to exceptionally bad consequences. You've provided no reason to…
> "This is significant because it calls into question the plausibility and achieveability of any kind of transition to Communism." It's clear now this is the core of your argument, so let's explore possible transitions further. First of all, let's examine direct democracy. Direct democracy is closer to communism than any of the attempts (by nation states) that have been given its name. In the age of the Internet, dir…
You have also erred in other ways, such as assuming that an identical balance between the individual and the collective is desirable for all. Further, you've assumed that breaking down current power structures will be followed by your preferred "means of organizing society" being adhered to instead of new power structures being established.
You've also ignored tribe-forming behaviors that can be reasonable expected to occur around active, inclusive, informative news media. Or how nearly-hairless primates react to the presence of tribes other than their own. Along the way, you've also ignored the implicit power structures inherent in having news media systems and voting systems.
So, let's go back to the problem here. All historical attempts to transition to Communism have resulted in terrifying numbers of dead people. This is so strikingly uniform that I am disinclined to think it an accident. Why would this time be any different at all, given that we're still dealing with the same nearly-hairless primates?
The core of my argument is that every time someone who thinks like you gets taken seriously at a society-wide level, a crapload of people die and the end goal is never achieved. So far, you've failed to make a case that this time is different.
Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Are you suggesting a leaderless society cannot exist or merely that it is hard to achieve?" At the end of the day, someone has to be the one to make the call to press the button.
That can happen democratically, you don't need to give the final say to a single individual or small group.
In your efforts to try to fix bugs, you are re-introducing older bugs. Have you considered that a rewrite from scratch may not be ideal here, given how hard it is to get a functioning system?
Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
That can happen democratically, you don't need to give the final say to a single individual or small group.
Now you're implicitly allotting power to those with the charisma and reach to sway others while simultaneously introducing all the problems of the tyranny of the majority. In your efforts to try to fix bugs, you are re-introducing older bugs. Have you considered that a rewrite from scratch may not be ideal here, given how hard it is to get a functioning system?
Also, note that the tyranny of the majority only applies if and when force is applied. Being in a minority is not necessarily problematic.
Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
Now you're implicitly allotting power to those with the charisma and reach to sway others while simultaneously introducing all the problems of the tyranny of the majority. In your efforts to try to fix bugs, you are re-introducing older bugs. Have you considered that a rewrite from scratch may not be ideal here, given how hard it is to get a functioning system?
Explain what makes democracy incompatible with communism. Also, note that the tyranny of the majority only applies if and when force is applied. Being in a minority is not necessarily problematic.
Here is the explanation you seek, friend. You are implicitly re-creating a leading class. The problem only appears solved because the class is implicit instead of explicit.
And historically, you've probably killed a couple million people by now.
Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
North Korea - 1948 to present day Of course anyone can go down the path of "well that wasn't real communism" and that goes for any ideology where humans are involved. You won't achieve the utopian ideal put forth in a book. And that's really part of the failure, not the reason to explain it away. The fact is some people work harder than others, are more ambitious than others and sacrifice more. And the reason people…
At the risk of repeating myself, North Korea isn't communist. You can't have a communist society if you have leaders. There is practically nothing that resembles communism in North Korea. Let me put it to you like this, any society that doesn't put shared ownership of the means of production at the top of its agenda is not and can never be communist.
If it were a winning combination the world would look that way. The world is not going towards a communist utopia because they are too easily corrupted.
Communism at that scale sucks. Why not start your own communist group if you're hell bent on it. Shared ownership is not 'ownership' You don't "own" something if everyone owns it. That's ridiculous doublespeak.
Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
> "This is significant because it calls into question the plausibility and achieveability of any kind of transition to Communism." It's clear now this is the core of your argument, so let's explore possible transitions further. First of all, let's examine direct democracy. Direct democracy is closer to communism than any of the attempts (by nation states) that have been given its name. In the age of the Internet, dir…
I think that primates are instinctual hierarchical creatures, much given to hierarchies of power. I think we are also subject to a wide variety of cognitive flaws and easily misled by emotions. I think that any political philosophy based on blithely ignoring the traits of human psychology is highly likely to fail. I further think that historical attempts to do so have displayed a disturbing tendency towards spectacul…
The difference is that it won't be a small group in power, taking away the rights of people. The power will be distributed throughout society, so there isn't a single point of failure and/or corruption.
> "You have also erred in other ways, such as assuming that an identical balance between the individual and the collective is desirable for all."
There's no such thing as an identical balance here, the balance will always be imperfect, but it is up to the individuals in the society to understand this balance, and try to make it as good as it can be.
> "Further, you've assumed that breaking down current power structures will be followed by your preferred "means of organizing society" being adhered to instead of new power structures being established."
I didn't state that direct democracy would definitely lead to communism, I stated that it would be a useful step to take before communism. In other words, should direct democracy take off, communism is not guaranteed, but it helps pave the way should people decide they want a communist society.
> "You've also ignored tribe-forming behaviors that can be reasonable expected to occur around active, inclusive, informative news media."
I don't doubt that tribes will form, but respect can still exist between tribes. For example, I'm not on the right-wing of the political spectrum but I can still respect thoughtful individuals that are. Furthermore, healthy debate is invigorating, people aren't only drawn to that which they agree with, debates between tribes can draw a crowd, especially if both groups feel well represented.
Also, I think you're misunderstanding what I mean by an 'inclusive, informative' news media, which isn't surprising. Inclusivity is important to ensure all views can be heard, the only way this is going to happen is by removing the filters that control mass media. If it helps, consider the new model for inclusivity will be closer to YouTube than TV.
However, this is only part of the solution, increasing available information doesn't help unless we can make sense of that information, which is why it is important for media to be informative. Extending the YouTube analogy further, every person is free to have their own channel, but efforts would be made to create cross channel content, either to refine the message of one 'tribe', or to engage with those they disagreed with. The easier these types of collaborative efforts are to organise and promote, the better chance we have of increasing our collective political consciousness.
> "I think that primates are instinctual hierarchical creatures, much given to hierarchies of power. I think we are also subject to a wide variety of cognitive flaws and easily misled by emotions. I think that any political philosophy based on blithely ignoring the traits of human psychology are is highly likely to fail. I further think that historical attempts to do so have displayed a disturbing tendency towards spectacular failure."
It'll take time to move beyond our past programming, but that's no reason not to try. The misguided attempts of the past show is that trying to force change through a totalitarian means is not desirable, it's important to raise our collective consciousness first, get people exploring new ways of living together without hierarchical social structures. Once we've had chance to understand this on a personal level, it'll be easier to get working on a larger scale.
Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
At the risk of repeating myself, North Korea isn't communist. You can't have a communist society if you have leaders. There is practically nothing that resembles communism in North Korea. Let me put it to you like this, any society that doesn't put shared ownership of the means of production at the top of its agenda is not and can never be communist.
I've already stated why it doesn't work. Human psychology towards progression and individual rights. Find us one that works. Then you'll see many other countries follow suit. You can then claim that "oh none have truly existed." And to that the answer is that's because it doesn't work in practice, so it devolves to dictatorships and oppression. If it were a winning combination the world would look that way. The world…
Okay then, point to one communist society that started out with shared ownership and devolved into a dictatorship. All the examples I know of started out with a ruling elite and stayed with a ruling elite, so I'm curious about which of these societies devolved over time.
> "If it were a winning combination the world would look that way."
We've barely begun to explore the possibilities of how societies can work. Furthermore, it's not exactly a common topic of debate in most people's social circles. If it'll take some working examples before people are open to new ideas, then so be it.
> "Shared ownership is not 'ownership' You don't "own" something if everyone owns it. That's ridiculous doublespeak."
People often need to relate something new to something they already understand. If the word ownership bothers you then you can drop it, the key word is shared. Communist societies share the resources that enable material wealth.
> "Why not start your own communist group if you're hell bent on it."
I do intend on living in an ecovillage one day, does that count?
Re: Abandoned South Dakota Town on Sale for $250k
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think that primates are instinctual hierarchical creatures, much given to hierarchies of power. I think we are also subject to a wide variety of cognitive flaws and easily misled by emotions. I think that any political philosophy based on blithely ignoring the traits of human psychology is highly likely to fail. I further think that historical attempts to do so have displayed a disturbing tendency towards spectacul…
> " All historical attempts to transition to Communism have resulted in terrifying numbers of dead people. This is so strikingly uniform that I am disinclined to think it an accident. Why would this time be any different at all, given that we're still dealing with the same nearly-hairless primates?" The difference is that it won't be a small group in power, taking away the rights of people. The power will be distribu…
And here's where you fail. What you have missed is that you aren't getting rid of power structures. You're replacing an explicit set of power structures with equally explicit rules with a set of implicit structures with no explicit rules. From there, I'm afraid it's a total shitshow.
You still get single points of failure. You still get corruption. You have just jettisoned your ability to deal with any of them effectively.
> There's no such thing as an identical balance here, the balance will always be imperfect, but it is up to the individuals in the society to understand this balance, and try to make it as good as it can be.
Excuse me. An identical balance for all individuals. A balance that is good for one person is incredibly bad for another. You're imposing uniformity where uniformity is unsuited.
> If it helps, consider the new model for inclusivity will be closer to YouTube than TV.
I am considering your model. Unfortunately, this model does not suggest what you think it does. Removing explicit filter systems just replaces them with implicit filter systems that accomplish the same tasks. Just as before, you're confusing getting rid of explicit power structures with getting rid of power structures.
Consider how Digg succumbed to organized influencers. Ask yourself how your system is immune to such things. Hint: it's not.
> It'll take time to move beyond our past programming, but that's no reason not to try.
Apologize to the dead created by people like you first. Consider how they came to be. Understand risk. Then come back.
I realize you think your reasoned discourse can convince, friend. However, all you have convinced me of is that you don't understand why past attempts to do exactly what you advocate have failed and why the consequences were so severe. That places you somewhere on the spectrum between misguided (if largely ignored) and incredibly dangerous (if heeded).
I suggest you start with learning about formal and informal power structures. Taking away the former does nothing except empower the latter.