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What Web Can Do Today

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Re: What Web Can Do Today

#71

Post by swiley »

deathanatos wrote: post #56
dheera wrote: post #50

More stuff the web can't do that native apps can do: * Request stuff from arbitrary URLs without a CORS proxy * Open TCP and UDP sockets * Be in the play store/app store AS a web app (home screen installation isn't enough; people still search for your thing in the app store, so even if the other problems aren't issues for your app, you still have to wrap your web app in a dummy native framework and upload it if you w…

I'm not saying that native apps > web apps isn't true, but… > * Request stuff from arbitrary URLs without a CORS proxy CORS isn't a proxy; it's a browser policy/algorithm that allows a site the opportunity to say "yes (or no), other websites may (or may not) make AJAX requests here". The native app (unless you've informed it somehow, or it has done something malicious) doesn't have the user's cookies, whereas the bro…

Of course you don't want web pages opening TCP and UDP sockets. The web isn't for writing apps it's for publicly editable documents with hyperlinks.

Re: What Web Can Do Today

#72

Post by bhrgunatha »

nandhp wrote: post #51
majika wrote: post #48

What the web is increasingly unable to do today: provide text content without requiring a code execution environment. This site is another example of that. All non-application websites should provide all their content in semantic HTML at appropriate HTTP endpoints, with CSS styling (in as few requests as possible) as required per the design, and JavaScript (in as few requests as possible) that takes the semantic HTML…

> What the web is increasingly unable to do today: provide text content without requiring a code execution environment. This site is another example of that. I was about to argue that this website is actually an excellent example of what you seek -- each link has a separate URL associated with it that returns a page containing that content. The links point to these real URLs so they work with "open in new tab" and "c…

> I was about to argue that this website is actually an excellent example of what you seek

> But it completely fails if you have JavaScript disabled in Firefox.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

We've known for a long time that progressive enhancement IS possible, it's just that very few sites bother to design for that. Are you just saying it's difficult and that this site "almost" made it.

Re: What Web Can Do Today

#73

Post by dheera »

venning wrote: post #69
dheera wrote: post #50

More stuff the web can't do that native apps can do: * Request stuff from arbitrary URLs without a CORS proxy * Open TCP and UDP sockets * Be in the play store/app store AS a web app (home screen installation isn't enough; people still search for your thing in the app store, so even if the other problems aren't issues for your app, you still have to wrap your web app in a dummy native framework and upload it if you w…

> Scroll like a native app without Safari's stupid rubber band scrolling the entire app at very erratic times This is defeatable, either with `-webkit-overflow-scrolling: touch;` or other techniques. > Background geolocation, background anything really You mean, Service Workers? > Display long lists of styled content and scroll without stalling I could be wrong, but I think this is a Safari-specific concern. Android…

I've definitely had problems with this. There's a lot of bloat that comes with the DOM, especially if you use a framework like Polymer or Angular. Even something as simple as a material-design text entry field requires a horrific amount of CSS bloat to accomplish internally, and if you multiply that by, say, 1000, you're in for trouble.

Re: What Web Can Do Today

#74

Post by venning »

dheera wrote: post #73
venning wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Scroll like a native app without Safari's stupid rubber band scrolling the entire app at very erratic times This is defeatable, either with `-webkit-overflow-scrolling: touch;` or other techniques. > Background geolocation, background anything really You mean, Service Workers? > Display long lists of styled content and scroll without stalling I could be wrong, but I think this is a Safari-specific concern. Android…

I've definitely had problems with this. There's a lot of bloat that comes with the DOM, especially if you use a framework like Polymer or Angular. Even something as simple as a material-design text entry field requires a horrific amount of CSS bloat to accomplish internally, and if you multiply that by, say, 1000, you're in for trouble.

Polymer and Angular 1.x do come with a lot of bloat. I wouldn't call a MD text entry field "simple". Material Design was released ahead of web technologies really being able to manage it well, at least on mobile.

Re: What Web Can Do Today

#75

Post by dheera »

tschuy wrote: post #66
deathanatos wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying that native apps > web apps isn't true, but… > * Request stuff from arbitrary URLs without a CORS proxy CORS isn't a proxy; it's a browser policy/algorithm that allows a site the opportunity to say "yes (or no), other websites may (or may not) make AJAX requests here". The native app (unless you've informed it somehow, or it has done something malicious) doesn't have the user's cookies, whereas the bro…

> Are there common devices out there with these? Most Android devices since maybe late 2012 have had one. It's used for enhancing GPS lock, and whatever developers can dream up. All I've heard about it being used for is a distributed air pressure sensor network used for weather prediction, tracking, etc. [0[ 0: https://www.pressurenet.io/

Yes. The barometric sensors in the iPhone 6 and most high-end Android phones of past 2 years are sensitive enough to determine +/-1 floor of building movement, among a whole lot of other things. Very useful if you're writing a hiking app, want to determine if the user is in an airplane or not, trying to do vertical geolocation in a vertical city like New York or Hong Kong (subtract user's barometric reading from the weather station and you'll have it accurate to +/-a few floors), and a whole lot of other endless possibilities.

Re: What Web Can Do Today

#76

Post by userbinator »

majika wrote: post #48

What the web is increasingly unable to do today: provide text content without requiring a code execution environment. This site is another example of that. All non-application websites should provide all their content in semantic HTML at appropriate HTTP endpoints, with CSS styling (in as few requests as possible) as required per the design, and JavaScript (in as few requests as possible) that takes the semantic HTML…

Thus, all content is readable and styled properly without requiring an arbitrary code execution environment. That is what the web was meant to be.

In other words, it was supposed to be a worldwide hyperlinked document library --- and we have mostly achieved that goal, although it is a library wherein you are constantly tracked and bombarded by books flying off the shelves at you, screaming at you to read them, and most of the books consist solely of ads with very little useful informational content.

In my experience, it's the people who don't talk about web development who are the best web developers; these are the people who don't wince when they write a HTML document without a single ``.

Agreed completely. The ones who write information-dense HTML pages, often by hand, would not be considered "web developers" nor would they consider themselves to be; but they are what the web needs most. I've done that, and I don't consider myself a "web developer" either.

it really irks me when web developers pretend like they're actually doing something good or useful, or that the web is actually in a healthy state

I wouldn't doubt that they genuinely feel like what they're doing is good or useful; I've noticed the appeal of "new and shiny" is especially prevalent in the web development community, with the dozens of frameworks and whatnot coming out almost daily, proposals of new browser features, etc. Very little thought seems put into the important question of whether we actually need all this stuff. It's all under the umbrella of "moving the web forward", whatever that means. But I think we should stop and look back on the monstrosities this rapid growth has created.

Re: What Web Can Do Today

#77

Post by friendzis »

Sephr wrote: post #11

Why is the Network Information API still a thing? I don't feel like it should even be listed on this website, as it's an anti-feature. It only encourages discrimination on connection types, as it doesn't expose the only important part: is this connection metered? Developers are going to use this API to serve me higher resolution assets over my metered WiFi & Ethernet connections (assuming they are unmetered) and lowe…

Usage policy is not necessarily metered vs free. It's a mixed bag of user expectations, developer needs and technical properties of the connection. Connections are by no means only unmetered broadband and metered LTE. I have recently experienced several connection "quirks" that require different approach:

  * punishingly high RTT
  * packet-per-timeframe ratelimit
  * throttling by queueing packets
  * unstability (some requests get served in tens of ms, others get lost in void)
  * connection jumping from one provider to another (e.g. mobile/wifi while next to home)
For example, jaggy GPRS in the middle of nowhere can mean two things: I working in a field and need to check something as quick as possible without ads and other unnecessary cruft hindering with that, or I am resting in a cabin and am willing to wait for a "proper" app to load.

I may also have two connections: fast metered, slow unmetered and would like applications to load important stuff fast over metered network and cosmetics over unmetered one. Too bad I have to pull whole javascript framework first in order to see anything, because web components, and it's uncacheable because it's webpacked with application code.

Re: What Web Can Do Today

#78

Post by HappyTypist »

sohcahtoa wrote: post #32
pi-rat wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Through DHCP, the DHCP server can set different DHCP-options to notify clients what type of connection it is. For example: Android Phones set up to be a hotspot will set DHCP option 43 to a value indicating that it's a metered cellular connection.

I had no idea DHCP could even do that. What do Android devices do on unmetered cellular connections? How do they know if the connection is metered or not?

In android settings you can set if your connection is metered or not, and set thresholds / warnings.

Re: What Web Can Do Today

#79

Post by hugozap »

userbinator wrote: post #76
majika wrote: post #48

What the web is increasingly unable to do today: provide text content without requiring a code execution environment. This site is another example of that. All non-application websites should provide all their content in semantic HTML at appropriate HTTP endpoints, with CSS styling (in as few requests as possible) as required per the design, and JavaScript (in as few requests as possible) that takes the semantic HTML…

Thus, all content is readable and styled properly without requiring an arbitrary code execution environment. That is what the web was meant to be. In other words, it was supposed to be a worldwide hyperlinked document library --- and we have mostly achieved that goal, although it is a library wherein you are constantly tracked and bombarded by books flying off the shelves at you, screaming at you to read them, and mo…

Against what platform should we compare the web to decide what it should look like?. I think everyone has a different criteria.

Re: What Web Can Do Today

#80

Post by jacquesm »

bad_user wrote: post #55
majika wrote: post #48

What the web is increasingly unable to do today: provide text content without requiring a code execution environment. This site is another example of that. All non-application websites should provide all their content in semantic HTML at appropriate HTTP endpoints, with CSS styling (in as few requests as possible) as required per the design, and JavaScript (in as few requests as possible) that takes the semantic HTML…

You're talking about " progressive enhancement ". It's a romantic idea, but it never happened, probably because it's too hard and the cost is not justified given most users run with their browser's default settings. The precursor of the web made by Tim Berners-Lee dates back to 1980, but it was not based on HTML or HTTP. These happened later in 1990 and early 1991. But then CSS happened in 1994. And Javascript happen…

CSS happened in 1996, the first couple of years of the web we had no CSS, all styling was done with inline attributes up to that point.

The frustrating bit is that CSS was supposed to separate content/structure and markup, but now we have pages without content but with markup where the content is loaded after the fact. This really overshot the mark.

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