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The Kotlin Language: 1.0 Beta Is Here

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Re: The Kotlin Language: 1.0 Beta Is Here

#71

Post by [deleted] »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #70
justthistime_ wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has been told by both Scala _AND_ Ceylon language developers that his large walls-of-texts are wrong and are largely made-up stuff which sounds plausible to him. Somehow he feels like he still needs to recycle his nonsense in every thread regardless of how remotely related it is to the topic.

So what, in the above "wall of text", is wrong about Scala or Kotlin? You're not telling what was incorrect, just that the author is _always_ incorrect, which strikes me as hyperbole.

[deleted]

Re: The Kotlin Language: 1.0 Beta Is Here

#72

Post by merb »

nikolay wrote: post #40

How is it better than Ceylon 1.2? Ceylon compiles to JVM bytecode, JavaScript, Dart, and will to LLVM in the future. As a language, it's a great superset of Java. I posted [0] about the great new Ceylon 1.2 (which is backed by Red Hat), and nobody seemed to care, but there's so much hype about Kotlin - I don't get it! [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10474126

Especially after looking into this: http://rosetta.alhur.es/compare/Ceylon/Kotlin/# which another guy posted here, it's pretty clear that NOBODY wants ceylon. Why? Syntax. Scala, Kotlin are loved by many cause of one simple fact. Their syntax. Ceylon tries to do something very differntly, which many people won't like.

I mean lets look here: variable value doors = [ for (_ in 1..count) closed ]; nobody even understands this. and this is the first "real" line.

then look at Kotlin: val doors = Array(100, { false }) everybody will understand what it does, you don't even need to know kotlin.

Re: The Kotlin Language: 1.0 Beta Is Here

#73

Post by randomThoughts9 »

nikolay wrote: post #40

How is it better than Ceylon 1.2? Ceylon compiles to JVM bytecode, JavaScript, Dart, and will to LLVM in the future. As a language, it's a great superset of Java. I posted [0] about the great new Ceylon 1.2 (which is backed by Red Hat), and nobody seemed to care, but there's so much hype about Kotlin - I don't get it! [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10474126

Well, the community here basically discussed the topic in detail 2 days before, when Gavin announced the 1.2 release[0].

Now, on why things are the way they are currently, here are a couple of reasons.

- so far, the ceylon team focused their efforts on the language itself and less on the available platforms, and that's why there are no clear getting staring guides for basically anything: web, android, etc.

- the language itself has a very distinct feel: from the way you publish your api (using the shared annotation), to the way union types affect the language (new way of handling errors, etc) to the way you use iterables {String*} instead of lists. These are all great features, but until you get the hang of it, they feel different. For me, this is just a problem of documentation.

- There is a very strange misconception, for lack of a better word, that just because JetBrains is building a great kotlin IDE, the ceylon IDE is somehow lacking. Which is not true at all. The eclipse plugin works great, and they'll also have an Intelij plugin soon.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10463464

Re: The Kotlin Language: 1.0 Beta Is Here

#76

Post by wpietri »

eropple wrote: post #19

I've been using Kotlin for a little while, as the backend language for the side project/maybe-startup I'm working on. I went with it because of my troubling tendency to write Scala code I can't read three weeks later, and in that I think Kotlin's a big success: the Java interop is good (still some weirdness around DI frameworks and non-nullable types, which is unavoidable if you're using something like Jersey with HK…

That's helpful. I have this side Scala project, a long-lived daemon[1], that I've been meaning to rewrite in something else, as I've grown disenchanted with it. (Bruce Eckel and Paul Phillips contributed to that. [2]) But every alternative I could think of was not so appealing. I'll check this out.

[1] https://github.com/wpietri/sunrise

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10163446

Re: The Kotlin Language: 1.0 Beta Is Here

#77

Post by lfowles »

merb wrote: post #72
nikolay wrote: post #40

How is it better than Ceylon 1.2? Ceylon compiles to JVM bytecode, JavaScript, Dart, and will to LLVM in the future. As a language, it's a great superset of Java. I posted [0] about the great new Ceylon 1.2 (which is backed by Red Hat), and nobody seemed to care, but there's so much hype about Kotlin - I don't get it! [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10474126

Especially after looking into this: http://rosetta.alhur.es/compare/Ceylon/Kotlin/# which another guy posted here, it's pretty clear that NOBODY wants ceylon. Why? Syntax. Scala, Kotlin are loved by many cause of one simple fact. Their syntax. Ceylon tries to do something very differntly, which many people won't like. I mean lets look here: variable value doors = [ for (_ in 1..count) closed ]; nobody even understand…

> I mean lets look here: variable value doors = [ for (_ in 1..count) closed ]; nobody even understands this. and this is the first "real" line.

Doesn't seem too bad coming from Python with list comprehensions.

Re: The Kotlin Language: 1.0 Beta Is Here

#78

Post by meddlepal »

nikolay wrote: post #40

How is it better than Ceylon 1.2? Ceylon compiles to JVM bytecode, JavaScript, Dart, and will to LLVM in the future. As a language, it's a great superset of Java. I posted [0] about the great new Ceylon 1.2 (which is backed by Red Hat), and nobody seemed to care, but there's so much hype about Kotlin - I don't get it! [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10474126

Ceylon is too radical. If i'm going to invest the effort into Ceylon I might as well use Scala. Kotlin hits the sweet spot.

Re: The Kotlin Language: 1.0 Beta Is Here

#80

Post by justthistime_ »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #70
justthistime_ wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has been told by both Scala _AND_ Ceylon language developers that his large walls-of-texts are wrong and are largely made-up stuff which sounds plausible to him. Somehow he feels like he still needs to recycle his nonsense in every thread regardless of how remotely related it is to the topic.

So what, in the above "wall of text", is wrong about Scala or Kotlin? You're not telling what was incorrect, just that the author is _always_ incorrect, which strikes me as hyperbole.

    So what, in the above "wall of text", is wrong about 
    Scala or Kotlin?
Maybe just check the responses from the last fifteen dozen times? It's not that hard.

    You're not telling what was incorrect, just that the 
    author is _always_ incorrect, which strikes me as 
    hyperbole.
I'm not telling anything. The Scala and Ceylon designers did. They probably know better than me, or him.
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