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How the war on drugs creates violence

washingtonpost.com

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Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#71

Post by clavalle »

lighthawk wrote: post #53
sixQuarks wrote: post #48

Besides all of the stated reasons to legalize/decriminalize, I think just as important is personal liberty. I should be free to experiment with my own consciousness (so long as it does not impede on the rights of others) - how much more personal can you get? For the government to impede on this is unconscionable (pun intended).

> so long as it does not impede on the rights of others This is really the crux of the problem. How do you suggest that you legalize all drugs and then keep people on those drugs from harming others? Public safety has a hard enough time without having to deal with some unknown number of additional people that would try drugs are harm themselves or others if those drugs were legal.

> How do you suggest that you legalize all drugs and then keep people on those drugs from harming others?

It depends on what you mean by that.

If you mean they harm others by going on a drug fueled rampage, there isn't much we can do but react when it happens like we do for, say, a passion fueled rampage or a drunken rampage.

If you mean people getting desperate because of a crippling addition so that they try to harm others in order to get access to their drug then I'd recommend spending a fraction of what we do going after and incarcerating these people and get them medical help with their addiction and the basic necessities of survival. And if they continue breaking the laws against other crimes, than prosecute them for those crimes.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#72

Post by tremon »

lighthawk wrote: post #53
sixQuarks wrote: post #48

Besides all of the stated reasons to legalize/decriminalize, I think just as important is personal liberty. I should be free to experiment with my own consciousness (so long as it does not impede on the rights of others) - how much more personal can you get? For the government to impede on this is unconscionable (pun intended).

> so long as it does not impede on the rights of others This is really the crux of the problem. How do you suggest that you legalize all drugs and then keep people on those drugs from harming others? Public safety has a hard enough time without having to deal with some unknown number of additional people that would try drugs are harm themselves or others if those drugs were legal.

That's not a crux, that's compounding the issue with a completely orthogonal problem. Politics 101.

How do you legalize alcohol and then keep people on alcohol from harming others? How do you legalize guns and then keep people with guns from harming others?

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#73

Post by omurphyevans »

jacquesm wrote: post #36
TeMPOraL wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yvain's classic on disease/failure of personality is worth bringing up[0]. Also, his more recent take on (US) attitude towards treating heroin addicts[1]. The ending paragraph of [1] works as a great TL;DR: "Society is fixed, biology is mutable. People have tried everything to fix drug abuse. Being harsh and sending drug users to jail. Being nice and sending them to nice treatment centers that focus on rehabilitation…

"Experiments have shown rats to forgo food to the point of starvation in order to work for brain stimulation or intravenous cocaine when both food and stimulation are offered concurrently for a limited time each day." From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_stimulation_reward

When given positive other life experiences, rats do not prefer cocaine to food.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#74

Post by TeMPOraL »

jacquesm wrote: post #36
TeMPOraL wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yvain's classic on disease/failure of personality is worth bringing up[0]. Also, his more recent take on (US) attitude towards treating heroin addicts[1]. The ending paragraph of [1] works as a great TL;DR: "Society is fixed, biology is mutable. People have tried everything to fix drug abuse. Being harsh and sending drug users to jail. Being nice and sending them to nice treatment centers that focus on rehabilitation…

"Experiments have shown rats to forgo food to the point of starvation in order to work for brain stimulation or intravenous cocaine when both food and stimulation are offered concurrently for a limited time each day." From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_stimulation_reward

The quote I cited was about heroin in particular; I don't know the state of anti-cocaine methods and the article doesn't go into it. It only states that apparently we have a perfectly good method of curing heroin addiction that's not being used for pretty stupid reasons.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#75

Post by grecy »

cubano wrote: post #44

I just don't think many people realize just how much legal corporate and government "business" is created by the insane war on drugs, and I am convinced this is the reason why it continues. Like I mentioned before, I just spent 6 months in the deep bowels of the criminal justice system for drug possession here in Florida, and those observations have shaped this view. The cops, the judges, the lawyers on both sides (w…

This is the problem with all the broken institutions in America today - too many people are cashing in big time, so they have no interest in changing the status quo.

Healthcare, pharmaceuticals, education, Department of War, tax, minimum wage, environmental protections, unlimited campaign contributions (i.e buying politicians) ... the list goes on

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#76

Post by lm______ »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #62
sixQuarks wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can say that about anything. Should the government stop people from eating junk food? from participating in dangerous sports activities? Why are drugs different?

Because, car accidents, child neglect, spouse abuse, healthcare, time lost to work... Some of those other things are regulated as well. E.g. You can't rappel in many state parks, because idiots kept getting hurt and costing the state $$$ in rescue attempts to remote locations. Its not all cruel government heedlessly restricting rights. That's an immature viewpoint. Count the cost and see that nothing is free.

Show me any evidence that taking a drug causes a person to beat their spouse or neglect their child.

And, for anyone who would drive intoxicated or cripple their health via drug abuse, that is already easy to do -- drugs aren't hard to find if you're looking. Prohibition hasn't and will not stop any of the negative consequences of drug use.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#77

Post by pstuart »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #62
sixQuarks wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can say that about anything. Should the government stop people from eating junk food? from participating in dangerous sports activities? Why are drugs different?

Because, car accidents, child neglect, spouse abuse, healthcare, time lost to work... Some of those other things are regulated as well. E.g. You can't rappel in many state parks, because idiots kept getting hurt and costing the state $$$ in rescue attempts to remote locations. Its not all cruel government heedlessly restricting rights. That's an immature viewpoint. Count the cost and see that nothing is free.

Count the cost of prohibition and do the math. It's cheaper to not spend billions of dollars on prisons and courts then to treat drug abuse like the health issue that it is.

Perhaps the police need to come and kick down your door and throw you in prison to keep you from drinking any more alcohol. You know, for your own good and to protect society.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#78

Post by Loque »

cubano wrote: post #44

I just don't think many people realize just how much legal corporate and government "business" is created by the insane war on drugs, and I am convinced this is the reason why it continues. Like I mentioned before, I just spent 6 months in the deep bowels of the criminal justice system for drug possession here in Florida, and those observations have shaped this view. The cops, the judges, the lawyers on both sides (w…

Further to this, imprisoning people who have drug problems does not solve the problem.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#79

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

I'm not too keen on Silver's analysis/conclusion that drug offenses account for such a low fraction of inmates' crimes. Drug possession renders a lot of otherwise non criminal behavior into a "violent felony", and prosecutors love tacking these extra charges on when they can.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#80

Post by will_brown »

cubano wrote: post #69
will_brown wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A little more insight into Florida and street drugs vis-a-vis violence...In some places drugs dealers are sanctioned specifically to avoid an increase in violence. Example, in Miami, FL, there is Grand Avenue, a historic street that could define "other side of the tracks", whereas Grand Avenue is a street where drug dealers openly hustle corners, but the road itself leads into Coconut Grove (an economic center in the…

Exactly. In Orlando, it's Paramour and/or Orange Blossom Trail. You hit the nail right on the head here..altho it's probably not just a Florida-thing and represents the utter hypocrisy and gamesmanship of the ridiculous war on drugs. EDIT: So I see now you are a criminal defense lawyer so that is very interesting...may I ask what percentage of your business is derived from defending non-violent drug offenders?

Drug possession might comprise 10% of my caseload and 100% of mine are non-violent. However, about 75% of the possession cases I have include another criminal count (DUI; leaving the scene of an accident; suspended license; etc...).
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