What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#71

Post by tptacek » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:02 PM UTC

JesperRavn wrote: post #20

This was a very well written and balanced article. I want to contribute a reason why I think that many men in tech hold back from fully endorsing this viewpoint. The reason is that there is a very fine line between saying that you don't have to be nerdy to be in tech, and failing to acknowledge that in general being nerdy is a disadvantage in society, and many people found a refuge in tech where they were mocked and…

Speaking as a nerd who grew up in the early 1990s: persecuted nerds do not have the right to (in any way) cordon off computer science as a refuge for their culture. But a lot of male nerds think they do!

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#72

Post by nmrm2 » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:02 PM UTC

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #22

gaius wrote: post #7

if they are shown a classroom (whether virtual or real) decorated not with “Star Wars” posters, science-fiction books, computer parts and tech magazines, but with a more neutral décor — art and nature posters, coffee makers, plants and general-interest magazines This would seem to be a bit of a bait-and-switch... If you aren't interested in "computer parts and tech magazines" then what exactly is it about computing t…

I don't see how this is bait and switch. I am a programmer and I cant't stand star wars or the vast majority of science fiction. Neither do I enjoy running around with geeky tshirts. You do not have to be nerdy to enjoy working with computers.

I think the parent was complaining that things which definitely have nothing to do with STEM fields (sci-fi and star wars) were interspersed with things that are germanely related (computer parts and tech magazines).

You wouldn't fault an anatomy course for having skeletons in the room or a Physics classroom for having copies of Science laying around, so the parent argues that it's also weird to tell technology educators not to display computer hardware (for instance).

FWIW I ultimately agree with you. Computer hardware and pop sci/tech trade rags have nothing at all to do with most of the Computer Science field.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#73

Post by pavornyoh » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:03 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #35

pavornyoh wrote: post #19

> What really keeps women out of Tech? It is because they don't want to be there. The opportunity is there for everyone to take thus men and women. I actually think women have an advantage in this space and it is up to them to see it and advantage of it. As a woman, I am tired this. If you want it, go and get it. There shouldn't be any special treatment. Prove you deserve to be at the table, prove you deserve to be t…

This is too generic a comment to count as substantive discussion. It would be better if it engaged with the specific content of the article. Edit: When I posted this, the comment consisted entirely of its first paragraph.

@Deng,

My point is Women are every bit as talented, smart, and tenacious as men. The focus on women is good in that there are women that just need to go for it - reference to the article however broad my initial response was.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#74

Post by jkyle » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:03 PM UTC

sheepmullet wrote: post #60

jkyle wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet, somehow more boys are sufficiently interested that they find their interest more important than the negative feedback. In these scenarios, boys find groups that are supportive. In their case the video game playing, computer oriented, math/physics/etc. "nerds" are one such social group. The entire point of the article is that those same groups are not supportive for women and girls. It has nothing to do with th…

> It has nothing to do with them being so strong and manly that they can stand up to the bullies and pursue computer science anyway! The way bullying works with boys and girls is very different. A boys greatest wish when bullied is to be left alone by the bullies. A girls greatest wish is to avoid being excluded. In general anyway. As long as I have enough good friends, I don't really care what anyone else thinks of…

> As long as I have enough good friends, I don't really care what anyone else thinks of me.

That's the definition of desiring inclusion.

If all of those friends that accepted you were marketing majors and not computer scientists the odds you'd pursue computer science goes way down. Particularly if the computer scientists were the bullies.

The point of the article is the computer (and in her case physics/science) culture was hostile to women, not inclusive.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#75

Post by jonesb6 » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:03 PM UTC

rewqfdsa wrote: post #48

This gem is in the comments: > The average programmer spends only about 30 percent of his/her time working alone. That's nowhere close to my figure. In fact, I can pretty much _only_ program alone. Individual investigation and discovery is most of the fun in the field.

Not trying to create a positive feedback loop here, but I concur. My personal experience could point to as much as 95% of "programming" time being entirely independent once taken into account: reading articles/guides/tutorials, debugging, "playing around with" new tools/languages/frameworks.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#76

Post by natvod » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:04 PM UTC

Ok so I'm a girl who codes/programs and I'm my take on the issues she raised:

Stereotypes about STEM fields putting girls off

I can only talk about my own experience but I saw very few negative stereotypes about STEM fields growing up. Definitely not enough to put off girls.

However, while I did start coding at a young age, I didn't apply my skill to a work/business purpose until my twenties.

Why? I think this issue affects both genders actually. I was simply never exposed to people or situations that showed me you could built really cool projects/businesses with code. I never encountered anyone/anything until ~20 that inspired me to take it seriously.

Maybe it has something to do with my gender but I think a lot of people these days are being forced way too early to commit to an education/work track without being given to chance to explore what their options are.

It's hard to discover you like a topic by learning it a classroom. I think co-ed / internship programs at a much younger age will help a lot. It definitely would have helped me discovered my true passions younger.

About being feminine

I don't feel un-feminine in any environment where there are more guys than girls. Rather, I think the problem is, the professional/business world as a whole rewards and values masculine traits (competitiveness, talking highly of yourself and accomplishments, etc.) much more than feminine ones.

Even in dress, women are encouraged to dress like a man (power suits, solid colors, etc.) in professional settings to be taken seriously.

Thus as a girl, you're forced to act more masculine to achieve business goals. But it's hard to suppress your natural state of being. Additionally girls are still expected to (and want to) act feminine in their personal relationships so women "who want to have it all" have to toggle back and forth between being masculine and feminine. It can be exhausting.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#77

Post by dclowd9901 » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:04 PM UTC

> Over and over, Dr. Cheryan and her colleagues have found that female students are more interested in enrolling in a computer class if they are shown a classroom (whether virtual or real) decorated not with “Star Wars” posters, science-fiction books, computer parts and tech magazines, but with a more neutral décor — art and nature posters, coffee makers, plants and general-interest magazines.

Sans the "general interest magazines" (so vanilla, it makes me want to barf), this sounds like a rather pleasant work environment. I'm so used to working in a dark cave with Boba Fett stand-ups everywhere, it'd be nice to work in a place with more greenery, natural tones and airiness. Nest's offices were a lot like this, and were one of the factors I liked about working there.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#78

Post by Mz » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:05 PM UTC

mwhuang2 wrote: post #70

Mz wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet, it appears that you will assume that we will assume that you are male. Why? Because you are on HN? Is this not buying into gender stereotypes? (I am a woman. I am sometimes referred to as "he" on HN. I am quite open about my gender and it is specified in my profile. But the default assumption here is that anyone talking must be male -- because tech. This is accepting a stereotype.)

I assumed people would infer my gender from the wording of my post.

That still means you are using gender stereotypes to not have to bother to state that you are male. You assume we will assume a man is not interested. It is still using gender stereotypes as a basis of your communication. This is something privileged people are prone to. It something women and minorities are less able to do. You can fail to state that you are male and just expect us to infer it because men very often have a dominant cultural position that actively fosters such behavior.

But thank you for replying.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#79

Post by vacri » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:05 PM UTC

> Yet I wonder how many young men would choose to major in computer science if they suspected they might need to carry out their coding while sitting in a pink cubicle decorated with posters of “Sex and the City,” with copies of Vogue and Cosmo scattered around the lunchroom.

Vogue and Cosmo!? As a 'feminine' counterpoint to the supposedly masculine 'computer parts' and 'tech magazines'!?

This is "Science. It's a Girl Thing"[1] all over again: "To get women into STEM, you have to show makeup and fashion". Fuck this view of fashion being a fundamental part of the female psyche. The article has some good points in it, but I think it overplays "women like fashion" and underplays "my computer time was gatekept by sexist arseholes".

[1]https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Science+it%27s+...

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#80

Post by rewqfdsa » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:06 PM UTC

omegaham wrote: post #62

zamalek wrote: post #5

We've known this for a while, it boils down to: barbies. Fixing this problem is really, really hard. Assuming I gave my daughters equal access to both barbies and chemistry kits, which would they choose? Kids want to fit in with their friends. Boy nerds get beaten up, girl nerds get ostracised. What does that lead to? The child choosing their gender stereotype (applies both ways) so that they can fit in. It's what th…

I'll confirm this anecdotally. My sister was extremely good at math and science... until the end of middle school, when she started hanging out in earnest with her friends. Her friends thought that any intellectual interest was nerdy and stupid, and my sister acted accordingly. Now, the girl who was easily learning algebra in elementary school "just can't do math." I think that the big difference in STEM is that nerd…

It's very sad how many people (both male and female) I knew growing up were "extremely good at math and science" until they ran headlong into anti-intellectual American high school culture. I saw people who loved science fiction spiral into useless party culture and end up with unfulfilling low-value service jobs. That's a tremendous waste of talent, and I don't think it's very much a gender issue.

I favor an approach where we separate kids who've shown some aptitude for the sciences and concentrate them in schools full of their peers. We can't do anything for the anti-intellectual types, but we can at least stop their ruining perfectly good raw talent.