Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations • Hacker News Board

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#71

Post by MCRed » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 5:36 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #58

MCRed wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is equinox getting the data? Is it from self reports? (EG: you apply for credit, say you work for XYZ and make $QWR -- that goes in your credit report.) Or are employers turning over this information to equifax? By what right can they do that? Seems a violation of the privacy act to me.

The employer is giving (selling?) the data. http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/exclusive-your-employer-ma... In the US the Fair Credit Reporting Act gives collection firms the ability to access this data. In other uses (like the landlord example) the access is granted by the employee.

I believe turning over this data by the employer without the employees consent is illegal, forbidden by the FCRA and privacy acts of 1974. I know the article you linked to claimed it was legal, but what this is telling me is that I should get employers to sign an NDA (not that they would, of course.)

So, yet another argument for starting a startup rather than being an employee.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#72

Post by ChuckMcM » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 5:39 PM UTC

I strongly recommend against lying to a potential future employer. An under-appreciated side effect is that it can become habitual. And then when you're the new CEO of a former dot com darling, it can bite you in the backside[1]

That said, if the only way you will keep working in a job is if they will pay you more money, then you should certainly tell your boss that. And if they don't want to pay that much you should own it and just leave. But more importantly if you're only metric of "happiness" in your job is what you are making month to month, then you have bigger problems to work on.

[1] http://www.forbes.com/sites/deborahljacobs/2012/05/14/the-hi...

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#73

Post by swang » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 5:46 PM UTC

zkhalique wrote: post #36

Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations (a lie, I added $14k to the original offer) See... it's hard to be "totally honest" in sales, even of your own time, because of the red queen effect. This was an integral step in the process of raising your salary. If you volunteer all information honestly, I am pretty sure that most players in the system will not have an obvious path to increasing your salary. Otherwi…

I think he?/she? means being upfront with the reader (us) about his negotiations, and not how he was completely honest in his approach.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#74

Post by cpwright » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 5:46 PM UTC

Bahamut wrote: post #33

I dislike this greatly, and it doesn't seem like a sustainable path - if the market crashes, and his/her skills don't match the compensation level, then it will backfire greatly & catch up to him/her. I was able to boost my salary to $160k in 2 1/2 years from a starting salary of $50k, but through tireless improvement of my craft (self-studying, experimentation, and contributions to major open source libraries, inclu…

Its better to make the extra cash in the meantime and then have to take a pay cut than to not have the money at all.

I will say that by the third time he's demanding more money with another offer; they should have said, "good luck." Matching once makes sense, matching twice, maybe. But the third time, you should just let him go.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#75

Post by joezydeco » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 5:47 PM UTC

MCRed wrote: post #71

joezydeco wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The employer is giving (selling?) the data. http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/exclusive-your-employer-ma... In the US the Fair Credit Reporting Act gives collection firms the ability to access this data. In other uses (like the landlord example) the access is granted by the employee.

I believe turning over this data by the employer without the employees consent is illegal, forbidden by the FCRA and privacy acts of 1974. I know the article you linked to claimed it was legal, but what this is telling me is that I should get employers to sign an NDA (not that they would, of course.) So, yet another argument for starting a startup rather than being an employee.

Talk to someone that's in the public sector. Maybe a local public works employee or the teacher at your local high school.

Their salary is public record and has always been that way. It was just a lot more difficult to find it until recently.

As for private businesses, I've never been aware of a law that says they can't hand the information out. They tend not to do it because of internal reasons like not letting the competition see it or keeping everyone from arguing about each other's comp all day instead of working. The FCRA allowed debt collectors a way to tunnel through companies that resisted cooperating.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#76

Post by notNow » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 5:49 PM UTC

Kalium wrote: post #65

notNow wrote: post #56

So, his strategy basically boils down to "My way or the highway". Well buddy, not all managers are spineless like the ones you have in that startup and if you tried to pull this trick on them and to strongarm them into submission, they'd kick you out the door in a heartbeat esp. when you're a lousy junior dev who's learning on the job according to your statement. I've been very critic of employers and business owners…

From what he's said, it's less that the managers were spineless and more that he made himself very valuable. Personally, I don't see a problem with a mercenary attitude. It's simple, it's clear, and you always know where you stand with a mercenary. It's easy to work with, if you're willing to meet them on their terms. It brings the clarity of a transaction to what is ultimately a transaction anyway.

Nothing wrong with putting you and your family or loved ones first and foremost before anything and I don't believe in loyalty for the company either esp. when it's a one way street where the employee is expected to fawn and suck up to his superiors to show his love and loyalty for the company to get ahead but to adopt a mercenary attitude at the expense of everything else no matter what is very questionable ethically and harmful to the morale of the company or the culture esp. when the place becomes full of those egomaniacs and ruthless selfish individuals.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#77

Post by fractalsea » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 5:52 PM UTC

> know your worth

How?

I think this wouldn't be so hard if you are in the valley (or other large tech cities in the US), or targeting large companies (Glassdoor). But how do you do this if you are in a different situation?

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#78

Post by draw_down » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 5:57 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #7

Two things: I went back to my original employer and said I had a new job offer for $70k, and I didn't want to negotiate, I just wanted their final, last ditch offer That's an incredibly awesome way to have a huge target painted on your back. A lot of employers get really pissed at this tactic but won't say so to your face. They will gladly give you that new salary for just enough time to get a (cheaper) replacement o…

Oh, there are so many ways around something like that. Say your total compensation was that plus equity/bonus, etc. Plus you could just flat-out claim the thing is wrong. Still though, I agree that lying is a dangerous strategy and can backfire.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#79

Post by pc86 » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:00 PM UTC

burnallofit wrote: post #40

joezydeco wrote: post #7

Two things: I went back to my original employer and said I had a new job offer for $70k, and I didn't want to negotiate, I just wanted their final, last ditch offer That's an incredibly awesome way to have a huge target painted on your back. A lot of employers get really pissed at this tactic but won't say so to your face. They will gladly give you that new salary for just enough time to get a (cheaper) replacement o…

I tried to look myself up, and indeed they don't have my current employer (a small startup). My guess is that only larger employers participate. More importantly, this raises significant privacy issues. How can a current or former employer make sensitive data like salary information easily and publicly accessible, without permission? That ought to be illegal. I agree that it's really wrong to lie about one's salary;…

> How can a current or former employer make sensitive data like salary information easily and publicly accessible, without permission?

Presumably it's a condition of employment. I mean most people sign a couple dozen forms when starting a new job, all it takes is one sentence on one form that says the company may share your employment-related information.

Re: Totally Honest Software Engineering Negotiations

#80

Post by draw_down » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:00 PM UTC

burnallofit wrote: post #50

OP's first mistake is only interviewing at 2 companies, which apparently both sucked. OP's second mistake is staying at the same company for so long despite the fact that (a) they have to fight for decent raises (b) the company sucks. Seriously, at the point where there are "serious problems in sales, engineers are leaving en masse", OP doubles down. They are now a highly paid manager in a sucky company. OP's third a…

Wow, I don't think that's a very good comparison at all.

Do you really think claiming I make $70k in an interview, when I really make $65k, is the same as selling a user's information?!