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It Is Time For Basic Income

hawkins.ventures

691–700 of 761 posts

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic Job will likely leave you little time to train in an area where you could be more productive for society. Basic Pay is designed to provide you the time to do that. Sure there has to be a bit of trust that you're going to not just sit on your arse, but very few people actually want to do that (despite what a lot of people think), and it's psychologically healthy to want to make the most of your life. A lot of th…

False. BI would not provide increases to science nor art. It would dilute them. I get enough emails as it is from whacko's who think they've upturned Quantum Mechanics, Relativity, or created some perpetual motion machine. If society valued these people's output they would be financially rewarded already. There's already incentives in present society, called capitalism and competition! There's a reason why only a tin…

> Further, plenty of people on social programs are quite content with sitting on their ass. And some deservedly so, due to true disabilities. An able-bodied adult has no moral right to income which they did not earn. That is theft from the truly deserving individuals who either were born with extreme hardships, or became disabled.

Trust me when I say that the truly deserving individuals with true disabilities do not want to sit on their asses, deservedly or not.

The part where it's "psychologically healthy to want to make the most of your life" holds just as much for them as for everybody (and it's arguably even more important for them). It doesn't take a very long time of sitting on your ass to realize this, either.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cab driver is a really bad example because the cab driver isn't providing a service that people argue is a human right. In terms of healthcare I think that it's reasonable that those who can should pay more to cover for those who can only afford to be grateful. That is usually how the cost of public services is distributed using taxes.

Ok, so make the example "your wife is bleeding out". Should the can driver charge you outrageously because you are richer than he is?

If you read my post again I am sure that you will understand that the predicament of my wife is irrelevant to my argument. Economically rationally the taxi driver will charge according to the perceived value of his service, which in terms of money means more to a rich person. Of course other factors weigh into this equation, especially competition and the fact that people aren't economically rational.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the reality is that we don't NEED everybody to work, or soon won't. The comforts of life will become a civil right. What then? Old Puritan work ethic becomes obsolete. Any thoughts on 'right behavior' in a post-work economy?

We're not anywhere close to this. For this to even happen we need everyone who can work, to work, right now. Implementing BI will delay your utopia.

Close in America. Its rapidly becoming obvious that big business doesn't want/need even a fraction of the available workers. Folks resort to entropic work, where they sort out fad and fashion for one another while producing no useful product. A way to keep everybody busy in pursuit of the fantasy of 'full employment'.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#694
post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American standard of living is inherently based in part on the standard of wastefulness. Our attitude towards wastefulness in general is a prerequisite for many of our liberties worldwide. If you remove these properties from the equation you don't really have the American standard of living anymore.

What's your definition of "wastefulness"? For example, am I being "wasteful" by using a computer connected to the Internet to make this post? If your answer to that question is yes (I don't actually think it is, but bear with me), then you are right that the only way to have an American standard of living is to be "wasteful" in this sense; but that would be true of any standard of living beyond bare subsistence. Good…

Being wasteful, in my mind, is wasting resources, energy, effort etc. for slight conveniences and superficial benefits. Most of the things people do are wasteful, but I think what's important is a matter of degree. And no, not being able to convince people to buy into that is completely irrelevant to the argument.

Where is the computer you were using before now? Chances are that someone else is using it, which more than cancels out any perceived efficiency gain. Chances are that you just threw it away, which is more detrimental to the environment than continued use. Maybe it's just collecting dust in your attic, where it will stay useless until any of the above two scenarios happen.

More importantly, I'd like to propose that what drives innovation in computer hardware is largely our attitude towards wastefulness. You couldn't sell and develop new hardware at such a rapid pace if people weren't readily throwing their old stuff away to have it replaced. I'm arguing that the whole process is wasteful, never mind that your machine performs better per Watt. Your old laptop probably had a greater cost to the environment in its manufacturing process and after you got rid of it than whatever energy you spent using it during its lifetime, and even more definitely the cost of manufacturing your current laptop was more than what you save by using it instead of the old one.

Let's get into farming, food production and food packaging if you still aren't convinced.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#696
post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your definition of "wastefulness"? For example, am I being "wasteful" by using a computer connected to the Internet to make this post? If your answer to that question is yes (I don't actually think it is, but bear with me), then you are right that the only way to have an American standard of living is to be "wasteful" in this sense; but that would be true of any standard of living beyond bare subsistence. Good…

Being wasteful, in my mind, is wasting resources, energy, effort etc. for slight conveniences and superficial benefits. Most of the things people do are wasteful, but I think what's important is a matter of degree. And no, not being able to convince people to buy into that is completely irrelevant to the argument. Where is the computer you were using before now? Chances are that someone else is using it, which more t…

Being wasteful, in my mind, is wasting resources, energy, effort etc. for slight conveniences and superficial benefits.

And who gets to decide which conveniences are "slight" and which benefits are "superficial"? Sounds like nice work if you can get it.

Where is the computer you were using before now? Chances are that someone else is using it

Not likely. Computer recycling centers return the materials to manufacturers so they can be used as raw materials for new production. They don't resell the systems as-is.

Chances are that you just threw it away, which is more detrimental to the environment than continued use.

If your definition of "wasteful" is "putting things in landfills instead of recycling them", you could have just said so.

You couldn't sell and develop new hardware at such a rapid pace if people weren't readily throwing their old stuff away to have it replaced.

This is quite true. But you're failing to ask the next question: why are people readily throwing their old stuff away? Because the new stuff is perceived by them to have better functionality. (This is not just true for computers; it's true for pretty much everything, cars, houses, clothes, etc.) They may be wrong, but who made you the judge of that?

For example, when you say:

the cost of manufacturing your current laptop was more than what you save by using it instead of the old one.

You are completely ignoring the benefit to me of having my current laptop instead of my previous one. You're basically saying that people should be satisfied with old, outdated products that don't work very well compared to new ones, just so that we can avoid manufacturing new ones. If you want to make that tradeoff for yourself, fine, go for it. But if you expect other people to accept your definition of what are "slight conveniences and superficial benefits" that don't justify buying new stuff, you're going to need to do a lot better than just pointing out that people buy a lot of new stuff.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't actually need all $6T, because most people will be paying taxes that equal or exceed what they receive from BI. You mentioned earlier that BI disincentivizes work. How so? It seems to me that it would not, because the basic income doesn't disappear the instant you start working even a little bit.

This one is pretty straightforward. BI disincentivizes work because it stays with you if you stop working. On the common assumption that people are working for the money, not for the joy of showing up, this reduces the penalty for not working, which will cause a rise in... not working.

With BI it always is beneficial to work. Even if you only work for a couple of months a year (for instance picking strawberries) you will make more money than not doing anything.

So if anything BI incentives people to work even if only for once in a while.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like a limited-scope version of it

How so? I can't see any less superficial connection than that they are both about giving away money.

So you view a program that gives away money to some people and a program that gives away money to all people, as so completely unrelated as to be utterly incomparable?

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#699

I just spent a year living in South Western France which is the most socialist part of France. (I'm a US citizen based here most of the time and I'm a CEO). If you want to see the result of wealth redistribution, go check it out yourself. You'll meet young men and women in the prime of their lives who spend their entire day in a coffee shop and later a bar, sipping a beverage discussing art, culture, poetry, how busi…

> the roughly $25K per year they get for doing nothing If you think that you can get that amount of money from doing nothing in France, you must have spent that year on crack. Do you have any idea how the french welfare state works? The minimum income (if you're eligible) is currently about €6000 per year. And that's not even enough to pay rent in most french cities (I'm paying €700/m for a 35 m², one bedroom, apartm…

Firstly, fuck you. Secondly, this is based on a specific example of a friend who worked for a Renault dealership and then stopped and received roughly that amount from the state while she didn't work with no time cap.

Don't like the prices in Paris? Fucking move. If you play your cards right, e.g. if you're a member of a minority like the Romanis you can live for free in perpetuity in several areas of southern france - and I don't mean in a caravan. In a large building with many apartments provided and supported by the town mayor - another specific example because I'm friends with the mayors wife in one town.

France is beautiful, but it's economically completely screwed with Hollande in power.

Sorry about your little expensive apartment.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't actually need all $6T, because most people will be paying taxes that equal or exceed what they receive from BI. You mentioned earlier that BI disincentivizes work. How so? It seems to me that it would not, because the basic income doesn't disappear the instant you start working even a little bit.

This one is pretty straightforward. BI disincentivizes work because it stays with you if you stop working. On the common assumption that people are working for the money, not for the joy of showing up, this reduces the penalty for not working, which will cause a rise in... not working.

It's certainly true that BI will reduce incentives to work, 1) on paid projects, 2) first order, 3) amongst those who are not currently receiving assistance.

Regarding each of these caveats in turn:

1) There are plenty of projects that we individually may deem socially worthwhile that we don't pay for. Parents raising their children being probably the strongest example, but there are other places where value is simply hard to capture. Incentive to work on these is not decreased by BI.

2) Incentive to work depends on what people are willing to pay you for your labor. If BI ultimately means people are willing/able to pay for more things then the total incentive to work may rise. So far as I'm aware, this is not a settled question (it seems a probable second-order consequence but possibly drowned by inflation, &c...)

3) Anyone currently receiving disability or welfare payments is not merely being paid despite not working, they're effectively being paid not to work. Transitioning to unconditional support will clearly increase their incentive to work.

What all this does in aggregate is not at all clear to me.

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