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Online age verification is the hill to die on

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Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#691
post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I considered many of the same points you mentioned. Though, one area I am still struggling to grasp is the harm that governments are trying to mitigate. If a child were to see inappropriate material, then what harm can truly arise? Also, why do governments need to enact such laws when the onus of protecting children should be on their parents? I am not trying to start any kind of flame war, but I really cannot see an…

It seems like you might be a big believer in cultural relativism and that nothing can be right or wrong, so this may be unsuccessful, but many of us do believe that it’s harmful to the normal development of children to be exposed to certain types of content. It is mostly about maturity. A five-year-old who sees explicit sexual acts performed on a screen is going to be curious about it and be interested in trying it.…

I appreciate your well thought out response, and I apologize for the length of my response:

As to whether I believe in cultural relativism depends on the level of abstraction we are discussing. I believe there is no way to logically prove that something is morally right or wrong in a similar manner to how a mathematical concept can be proven from pure logic alone. But this fact does not often influence my beliefs in terms of morality in the context of social contracts, diplomacy, legal frameworks, etc.. To draw a parallel, I do not believe in complete free will, but I live my life as though it does exist (I believe in more of a 'sandbox' like an RPG video game with clear constraints and limitations).

> many of us believe that it’s harmful to the normal development of children to be exposed to certain types of content.

Are these beliefs supported by evidence or are they merely conjecture? Do not get me wrong, I am not saying I completely disagree. A child exposed to various types of abuse and neglect can have detrimental effects to his or her development, and there is plenty of evidence to support a statistical relationship.

> A five-year-old who sees explicit sexual acts performed on a screen is going to be curious about it and be interested in trying it.

I believe that is quite presumptuous. By that logic, if a child is exposed to comedic content, will that child become funnier? Such conclusions remind me of the debate as to whether violent video games and other media increase aggression and acts of violence in children. The data clearly does not support this conclusion. Now, I would not say there never has been/will be a case of a child trying to replicate a sexual act due to exposure -- much like violent content -- but outliers do not define the norm.

> He or she will likely have no sense of what would be problematic (e.g. trying to initiate such an act with a peer or an adult. Consider how they probably don’t understand ideas of consent).

Understanding consent is irrelevant. Children legally and morally (as determined by my culture) cannot consent to any sexual activity under any circumstances. Consent is de facto impossible. This is a social contract that I also strongly agree with.

> It’s why it’s generally considered grooming for people to exhibit that type of thing to children.

I was under the impression the intention behind the action was more important than the action itself. There is a difference in intentions between a child stumbling upon an adult getting undressed compared to an adult undressing and exposing themselves in front of a child. One action is happenstance and the other is predatory and abusive. It's why family pictures that might have a naked baby in a bathtub is not often considered CSAM.

> Children who have been groomed frequently abuse other children (including by force), and can be taken advantage of by pedophile adults.

I believe this myth is perpetuated too often. The vast majority adults that of sexually abuse children have no history of childhood sexual abuse. Certainly, some do perpetuate the abuse, but it's not as common as some might think. It is just another attempt for abusers to garner sympathy and decrease their punishment. It's very similar to the myth that public urination can result in a registered sex offender. To my knowledge, there are no instances of this type of case in the United States. However, it is a clever little lie to tell comfort folks into living next to a registered sex offender convict of a more heinous crime.

As for children-on-children abuse, I am not certain your claim holds up, but I admit I am less knowledgeable in this area.

Fundamentally, the laws around requiring ID to view adult content do not really prevent any of the harm we are discussing. Sure, I child might not accidentally stumble upon explicit content on Pornhub. However, the laws do not stop Chester Child Molester from sending their dick pics to a kid on Discord or Roblox or whatever.

Why is it the if a child stumbles upon a parent's firearm and hurts themselves or another, the parent can be held liable in both civil and criminal court. However, if a child stumbles upon sexually explicit content via a parent's computer, the onus is placed upon everyone but the parent(s)? If the harm of exposure of sexual material to youth is so damaging, then should parents not also be held to such civil and criminal punishments?

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#692
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4chan servers are in the US and the owner is in Japan. If the US wanted to they could seize all the servers but they will not because they have real time monitoring of all activity on the boards and have ever since Christopher testified before congress and the site was sold . If anything 5-eyes want that site to be unrestricted. 4chan has been a goldmine of people self reporting for wanting to shoot up or bomb places…

> If the US wanted to they could seize all the servers Are you sure you didn't misread what I said? Asking because I am not sure how what you are saying has anything to do with my point. Why would the US even consider seizing the servers? 4chan isn't breaking any US laws, and US indicated zero interest in pursuing 4chan. The case I am describing is about 4chan breaking UK laws (by refusing to implement age verificati…

4chan isn't breaking any US laws

They break US laws every single day. Every loli in /b/ and /gif/ thread violate several laws and yes people do debate this endlessly which I will not, discuss that with lawyers that deal with CSAM. On that alone they could easily seize all the servers if they wanted to but that will never happen because like I said it's an goldmine for people self reporting they are going to shoot up a place or show intent for a myriad of other crimes. The feds would never throw away such an easy mode treasure trove nor would I expect them to. The site started glowing hard in 2008 and glowed even harder after 2012. I even showed people how to extract IP addresses using the hashes in the thread and post ID prior to their moving to Cloudflare and the users still went into full cope.

All of this aside it would be trivial to add the RTA header to the entire site. They could add it in the Cloudflare interface in a few seconds. It would cost them nothing. Only groomers would have their jimmies rustled even despite most of the groomers having moved to Roblox.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#693
post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In China, people generally share porn through closed social network groups.

Given what we know about China's internet, is there any real privacy in those groups if authorities wanted to crack down on them?

encryption exists. so to an extent, yes there is privacy, but in the end, people are always the weak link.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just love the idea that the solution to kids not doing what you want them to is telling them not to do a thing. It’s so optimistic.

when i tell my 15 year old kid not to smoke, he obeys. sounds like a skill issue on your part.

> sounds like a skill issue on your part.

I am in fact a terrible parent. I rarely try to get better, and when I do I make it worse.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just love the idea that the solution to kids not doing what you want them to is telling them not to do a thing. It’s so optimistic.

Not sure if this is sarcastic but that's exactly how drug education works in the US. Sure it's optimistic but almost everything about raising kids is optimistic.

DARE made me more curious about doing drugs.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why 90%? and who decide is it 90%? or 87%? or 94%? are we going to have a referendum to decide on this? we need 100% people to vote on this referendum or small fraction will work? ...?

Practically it's hard to ban something new across the entire country without overwhelming support like that. There are enough people who strongly think kids shouldn't be able to buy alcohol or cigarettes that it ended up getting banned in every form, in all US states (even before federal law). Wouldn't be possible with a slight majority opinion, even if an individual proposition only needs 50% of votes.

> without overwhelming support like that.

this is 1,000,000% not accurate. there are things that vast majority of people support that are never going to happen (e.g. universal background check for gun purchases) and there are things that ruling party easily gets through that are wildly unpopular.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if this is sarcastic but that's exactly how drug education works in the US. Sure it's optimistic but almost everything about raising kids is optimistic.

DARE made me more curious about doing drugs.

I was curious about drugs after DARE because I learned about stuff I'd never heard about before. But it didn't make me want to _try_ drugs. And if DARE weren't enough, watching Euphoria was definitely enough to make me not ever want to touch drugs.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#698
post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes we can compare, and your original comment was wildly incorrect. You aren't going to get proven correct by digging into this further Just because the the US provides zero paid leave by law doesn't mean women don't take maternity leave - it's often self funded of course. How about you look into that and compare, instead of trying to ask specific questions to arrive at a gotcha

heard it here first that extensive maternity leave and zero maternity leave is a “gotcha” :)

[deleted]

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Practically it's hard to ban something new across the entire country without overwhelming support like that. There are enough people who strongly think kids shouldn't be able to buy alcohol or cigarettes that it ended up getting banned in every form, in all US states (even before federal law). Wouldn't be possible with a slight majority opinion, even if an individual proposition only needs 50% of votes.

> without overwhelming support like that. this is 1,000,000% not accurate. there are things that vast majority of people support that are never going to happen (e.g. universal background check for gun purchases) and there are things that ruling party easily gets through that are wildly unpopular.

I said it's hard to ban something without support, not that it's easy to ban with support. Not to mention, gun background checks are more controversial than you're making them out to be, in fact this is an example I would use. Even if more than 50% like the idea of a background check, not so many will trust the implementation, and not everyone will vote.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#700
post #684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can support any effort that puts the responsibility into the hands of the parent without a mechanism that advances identity verification to protect their children. The way it stands now. this issue is being used by people in power to advanced an authoritarian agenda. Its really clear to see, if you only have the will to look.

>I can support any effort that puts the responsibility into the hands of the parent without a mechanism that advances identity verification to protect their children. Which brings us right back to what I said here[1]. We don't have to agree on the motivations behind this push. Even if you believe this is all an authoritarian conspiracy, that conspiracy could be undermined by proposals like OP's, but instead people ma…

Im happy to have dialog with anyone that wants to protect children under the circumstances I already described. But if these initiatives push forward IDing people to have protection, then Im sorry you are on the wrong side of life and are involved in making the future of our society worse. I don't see you as an enemy, more misguided then anything. Im sure people are going to turn this into friends and enemies, but I don't look at it that way. I have to defend freedom under all circumstances. In most cases I support deontology over utilitarianism because I have seen how far we have slid in terms of being free as a people because we want to make everyone safe..

Taking away freedoms, for any reason, is not the answer. They make us less secure [0] and promote bad actors to make things worse.

[0]: https://news.clemson.edu/the-safer-you-feel-the-less-safely-...

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