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We haven't seen the worst of what gambling and prediction markets will do

derekthompson.org

691–700 of 741 posts

Re: We haven't seen the worst of what gambling and prediction markets will do

#691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suggest that you think rationally about what you just said. Why wound anyone open a bet on "rando's house will be set on fire"? Why would they bet on "yes"? You can't present a generic case such as that without going into details about motivations and actual incentives. Those way worse events also have a lot of extra political motivations behind it. If someone starts a war with the sole intention of winning a bet,…

> Why wound anyone open a bet on "rando's house will be set on fire"? Why would they bet on "yes"? Bettor is an impoverished arsonist with no morals and confidence in his anonymity. Better question: why would a person ask a question with such a breathtakingly obvious answer?

So, you are telling me this "impoverished arsonist" opened a bet on "will this rando's house be burned?", wagered on "yes" (with what money?), other people (who?) bet on "no" and no one found it suspicious? I hope you do realize that making it a public bet exposes information, and the very subject of the bet can be used to prove intentions.

Nevermind the fact about what would happen after the crime, should it even happen. It seems this hypothetical arsonist isn't just immoral, but also incredibly stupid (and that also begs more questions, like how do they have access to prediction markets like this).

For something so "breathtakingly obvious", it seems poorly thought through.

Re: We haven't seen the worst of what gambling and prediction markets will do

#692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, as I said, "aggregating public and private information through market mechanisms".

That's vague enough to be more or less meaningless, where specifically do you see positive externalities outweighing the numerous negative ones?

If that strikes you as vague, I strongly recommend you to read at least an LLM summary of "The Use of Knowledge in Society".

Re: We haven't seen the worst of what gambling and prediction markets will do

#693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why wound anyone open a bet on "rando's house will be set on fire"? Why would they bet on "yes"? Bettor is an impoverished arsonist with no morals and confidence in his anonymity. Better question: why would a person ask a question with such a breathtakingly obvious answer?

So, you are telling me this "impoverished arsonist" opened a bet on "will this rando's house be burned?", wagered on "yes" (with what money?), other people (who?) bet on "no" and no one found it suspicious? I hope you do realize that making it a public bet exposes information, and the very subject of the bet can be used to prove intentions. Nevermind the fact about what would happen after the crime, should it even ha…

Okay, now I understand why you’re asking questions like this.

Re: We haven't seen the worst of what gambling and prediction markets will do

#694
post #648

I got into weather betting markets earlier this year since I figured those can't possibly be rigged, it is automated weather station data yet some groups in the market know the truth a few minutes before everyone else based on the way the markets move. BUT, I stopped on the day that the PHL airport preliminary report said the low of the day was 17 and then later than day the low was raised to 18. The way the market w…

I'd be curious to know why you decided to bet on weather patterns in the first place. Seems like a very roundabout way to lose money.

Your question implies a sense of moral outrage about gambling so I don't if it was asked in good faith or not.

Kalshi was on my radar because of Tim Walz dropping out the Minnesota governor race and an article about who would replace him being wagered on prediction markets, coincidently this was during a boring part of January after a snow storm and so weather was on my mind.

You can wager on aggregate precipitation, high and low temp, etc. The price is a binary contract between two parties with the market taker paying a small percent fee, so the conclusion you make that it "seems like a roundabout way to lose money" was not the conclusion I drew then nor believe that conclusion to be true even now, being a market maker using a trivial model from one-day forecast data was break-even for me.

Re: We haven't seen the worst of what gambling and prediction markets will do

#695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With proper constraints, there is a major positive externality in aggregating public and private information through market mechanisms. Robin Hanson wrote about this subject extensively. Dismissing it outright as a zero-sum game is a bit naive.

>With proper constraints, there is a major positive externality in aggregating public and private information through market mechanisms. Robin Hanson wrote about this subject extensively. Dismissing it outright as a zero-sum game is a bit naive. It's only gambling when you are betting of completely random events. If you know what the odds are of something happening, even with some approximation, then it is not gambli…

Randomness does not imply the uniform distribution

Re: We haven't seen the worst of what gambling and prediction markets will do

#696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suggest that you think rationally about what you just said. Why wound anyone open a bet on "rando's house will be set on fire"? Why would they bet on "yes"? You can't present a generic case such as that without going into details about motivations and actual incentives. Those way worse events also have a lot of extra political motivations behind it. If someone starts a war with the sole intention of winning a bet,…

Ay, didn't see your nickname, and your other posts. Thanks for confirming what I said. > And naysayers (which seem to be dropping from the same basket of NFT/crypto cultists) will tell you that this is about probability and information discovery. Also, I ain't conservative, prediction markets, in their actual scope provide no benefits and plenty of wrong incentives. The rest of your post makes no sense. Plenty of wor…

> Also, I ain't conservative, [...]

Then don't argue like one. Rather than making a shallow statement about "how people forgot about the evils of something" and leaving at that, get into more detail about the history. Mention specific events.

> The rest of your post makes no sense.

Can you specify what doesn't? I'd gladly do my best to clarify.

> And you want to argue to me that there's no people in position of power that may want to influence events they can bet on?

No, I'm asking why are there such people? How did they get into such positions? What can be reasonably done to prevent such people from rising into them? From what I've gathered, your point is that the mere existence of prediction markets create enough incentives for well-behaved people to misbehave. My position is that they were never well-behaved.

> There's a reason why we prevent people in sports from betting: it's a matter of incentives.

Sure, we can leave it at that. If we ignore everything else. The problem with sports betting is that it tends to convert the practice from a compention of ability into another form of gambling. This does more than create incentives, it creates a negative feedback loop that undermines the point of the practice. Neither prediction markets nor gambling are about preserving the sanctity of fair play, though. Also, for what's worth, betting about outcomes in sports seems to be legal in the US, just that athletes and other involved are prohibited from betting in their games. If your proposal is to ban people in power from being able to bet and implementing systems to prevent them from doing so, then I suppose we are in agreement. But do note that this is less about incentives, and more about trust (you can trust more that agents won't abuse their role and, if they do, it'll be harder to get away with it).

This segways into main issue with your post. Incentives are highly subjective. For all intents and purposes, they always exist. They are the product of people having goals and desires. The incentive to murder always exists. The reason people generally don't "bend everything" for it is that few will satisfy their goals with that, and even less have it as their goal. For the few that do, there's another tool: disincentives. I don't think I need to explain why murdering someone might result in a terrible outcome for most. For the even fewer that murder as their sole and primary goal, they will bend everything to accomplish it, regardless of incentives/disincentives. Personally, I don't find it even worth discussing. This, perhaps, made it clearer why simply saying "there are incentives to do evil" doesn't cut it. A deeper, more contextual analysis is needed.

Unless you can show there are only criminal uses, or even that there are no set of disincentives we can employ to dissuade potentially bad actors from doing evil, a blanket ban is not warranted, specially when it comes at the cost of a human right.

Re: We haven't seen the worst of what gambling and prediction markets will do

#697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you are telling me this "impoverished arsonist" opened a bet on "will this rando's house be burned?", wagered on "yes" (with what money?), other people (who?) bet on "no" and no one found it suspicious? I hope you do realize that making it a public bet exposes information, and the very subject of the bet can be used to prove intentions. Nevermind the fact about what would happen after the crime, should it even ha…

Okay, now I understand why you’re asking questions like this.

Sure, but regardless your perception about my motivations, I'm genuinely curious as to what prompted the "breathtakingly obvious" comment, because I'm ain't seeing it. Preferebably in a less snarky fashion, should we proceed with respect to one another.

Re: We haven't seen the worst of what gambling and prediction markets will do

#698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe people are throwing so much money on zero/negative sum games that on average have no benefit to anyone including yourself. I mean I know gambling is a thing but at least we are counting that as an addiction. But we seem to take polymarket more seriously.

With proper constraints, there is a major positive externality in aggregating public and private information through market mechanisms. Robin Hanson wrote about this subject extensively. Dismissing it outright as a zero-sum game is a bit naive.

> With proper constraints,

load bearing phrase there

nothing about the US currently can be characterized as having proper constraints

generic "bet on anything" betting markets massively encourage corruption and market manipulation via shock events and insider trading. false flag attacks, etc

Re: We haven't seen the worst of what gambling and prediction markets will do

#699
post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon is not a monopoly. See Walmart, Ebay, etc. Lots of companies sell products online. > (eventally) higher prices I have not noticed Amazon charging higher prices than others. The difficulty in charging higher prices is competitors emerge.

Amazon extracts a lot of the value of a purchase from the seller's take. Sellers risk sanctions if they sell a product cheaper thru their brand website.

It's normal for wholesale prices being at 50% to 60% of what the retailer will sell it for. It's always been like that.

And those wholesalers would not do business with you if you undercut their retail price.

Amazon's practice is normal throughout the industry.

I know this because my business in the 80s would wholesale my products through mail order retailers.

Re: We haven't seen the worst of what gambling and prediction markets will do

#700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we've seen concentrated wealth chip away at regulations for decades or even rip them apart overnight. There are more and more regulations every day. Oil refineries are being abandoned in California due to regulations so heavy there's no way for them to operate anymore. A friend of mine pulled his business out of California due to stifling regulations. > Everything will be marketized and monetized and accelerated an…

but not universally. oil refineries were causing asthma and environmental degradation. them moving to another state is a regulatory failure (they shouldn't have another jurisdiction to move to, they should just operate without imposing negative externalities on others, spelling of the refineries). what value is clean air? what is the value of a human life? how much is your attention worth? these are questions that ca…

Socialist economies are much more environmentally destructive, because they are so inefficient they cannot afford the luxury of being environmentally cleaner.
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