Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional • Hacker News Board

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#691

Post by chupchap » Wed, Mar 11, 2026, 9:42 PM UTC

db48x wrote: post #682

chupchap wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being the registered owner makes the person responsible. The owner can state it being stolen, or driven by someone else as valid reasons

Right. I am completely aware that it works that way in many parts of the world, but in the United States of America it is unconstitutional _unless_ the state law makes it a completely civil infraction that is settled using a fine only. No points, no suspensions, no police interaction at all. Under Florida’s laws it is explicitly a misdemeanor for the _driver_ of a car to run a red light, so it is unconstitutional for…

> People in other parts of the world tend to think that they are just as protected from their government as we are in the USA

No one in a modern democratic country thinks this way. US is not a benchmark in any form other than grandstanding about rights. Government snooping and overreach is as much a problem in US compared to other countries.

The difference is that something as simple as a traffic rule violation is not linked to constitutional rights because the repercussions of over speeding and jumping a signal is a catastrophic and could lead to deadly accidents. The problem that was solved with the linked verdict was that the process of proving innocence was not easy and this could have been easily solved with process change, without all the legal wrangling. It is just legalese porn and an over complication.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#692

Post by LorenPechtel » Thu, Mar 12, 2026, 3:23 PM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #674

LorenPechtel wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. Camel's noses should always be shot. Otherwise they creep in more and more. Some examples that come to mind: Look how the exception for searches at border crossings has expanded. The use of actions against licenses for behavior that has nothing to do with the license. The use of permits to get companies to do things only marginally related to the purpose of the permit. The encouragement of universities to expel…

You can add using banks as a leverage to suppress legal but "undesirable" activities - see Operation Choke Point.

How is that not covered by my last example?

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#693

Post by LorenPechtel » Thu, Mar 12, 2026, 3:30 PM UTC

SecretDreams wrote: post #681

LorenPechtel wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's consistently high something needs fixing. But accidents are random, there will always be some intersections that by pure chance have more accidents. Put cameras on those, presto, cameras "work".

Some intersections having more accidents by pure chance is kind of an oxymoron, imo.

What's an oxymoron about it?

Let's make a hypothetical city with 10 intersections, all absolutely identical. Watch until you have seen 20 accidents. Do you really think there will be exactly 2 accidents per intersection??

Select the intersection that gets the most accidents, declare it dangerous.

Case A: stick a camera on it. Case B: do nothing. Watch another 20 accidents.

In both cases you expect to see fewer accidents at the intersection as the original number was just chance. But if you're trying to prove cameras work...

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#694

Post by fennecfoxy » Thu, Mar 12, 2026, 3:46 PM UTC

Orygin wrote: post #579

fennecfoxy wrote: post #573

Lmao why. Stop driving through red light, stop speeding. Ya fuckers. In the UK it's ridiculous, barely any speed cameras and those that are there are clearly marked (legally have to be). Everyone just slows down for the speed cameras and then start speeding again after. I've actually heard people say that the above is effective because it makes people slow down where it's important. Or, you know how about people just…

Except cameras don't increase safety. You say it yourself that everyone just speeds up after the camera. Getting a ticket also does nothing to prevent you from speeding in the first place (the ticket does not arrive to you instantly, you're still speeding on the road). Road safety is an infrastructure problem, but it is always easier and cheaper to just put a camera and collect money. While designing roads that you c…

>You say it yourself that everyone just speeds up after the camera

...because they know where it is and there are so few of them...

Humans are very good at trying to get away with things. The only way to solve speeding is for people to receive the fines, receive the points on their license. They only speed because they're selfish fucks and because it's so easy to get away with it.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#695

Post by elliottkember » Thu, Mar 12, 2026, 5:16 PM UTC

db48x wrote: post #683

elliottkember wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not European. Many countries have speed cameras. It differs how you’re caught. We treat a red light camera or speed camera violation as an infringement offence, like parking. If you’re pulled over, you can have your license suspended or be charged with reckless driving on the spot, because they know who you are. There’s no case, and no guilt, just a penalty. It’s not about guilt but responsibility. You’re respons…

If your country’s law says that the owner of the car commits a crime if the driver runs a red light, then ticketing the owner makes perfect sense. But in Florida the law says that the _driver_ has committed the crime. Therefore the _driver_ must be ticketed, not the owner.

It’s not a crime, it’s an infringement (NZ) or civil infraction (FL), and there’s no criminal record associated. There’s a material difference between an infraction and a crime.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#696

Post by seemaze » Fri, Mar 13, 2026, 4:50 AM UTC

hunter2_ wrote: post #396

seemaze wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here; tickets always include the photo of the driver. If the photo is unclear or differs from the registered owner, tickets are easily dismissed. However, I agree with Florida on this; the onus should be not be on the accused to prove innocence after a citation is issued. Feels like a 'call us to unsubscribe' time-wasting dark pattern.

If the law is such that the owner is guilty regardless of who was driving, but the owner can opt to reassign the fine to the driver if they have the willingness and the evidence to do so, then proving innocence isn't really what's happening if the driver opts to do it. That said, if merely being the owner of a tool is sufficient to be guilty of whatever infraction someone else performs with said tool, that has 2 prob…

The whole point is that the law is not such that "owner is guilty regardless". This is the weaponization of bureaucracy to maximize profit. The cost to issue a legally dubious citation is substantially less than the cost to refute it. It also happens to fall afoul of the right to due process, as realized by the state of Florida.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#697

Post by Orygin » Fri, Mar 13, 2026, 9:28 AM UTC

fennecfoxy wrote: post #694

Orygin wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except cameras don't increase safety. You say it yourself that everyone just speeds up after the camera. Getting a ticket also does nothing to prevent you from speeding in the first place (the ticket does not arrive to you instantly, you're still speeding on the road). Road safety is an infrastructure problem, but it is always easier and cheaper to just put a camera and collect money. While designing roads that you c…

>You say it yourself that everyone just speeds up after the camera ...because they know where it is and there are so few of them... Humans are very good at trying to get away with things. The only way to solve speeding is for people to receive the fines, receive the points on their license. They only speed because they're selfish fucks and because it's so easy to get away with it.

So put cameras everywhere? What a privacy nightmare.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#698

Post by account42 » Wed, Mar 18, 2026, 11:49 AM UTC

pants2 wrote: post #545

vrosas wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My daycare fines parents $5 _per minute_ of lateness.

Three hundred dollars per hour? How is that acceptable? Certainly there's some sort of maximum or grace period?

It's a perfectly acceptable fee for a service that the daycare doesn't want to provide but has to if parents are late.

The point is to encourage people to NOT make use of the service.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#699

Post by account42 » Wed, Mar 18, 2026, 11:53 AM UTC

Terr_ wrote: post #503

hunter2_ wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly why license points (leading to suspension) are better than fines. If the ticketing decision made by an automated camera system is deemed acceptable when issuing mere fines akin to parking tickets, but deemed unacceptable when issuing other penalties (which don't have this wealth inequity issue we are discussing now, at least not exclusively), that's effectively a poor tax.

More broadly, I think it's important to distinguish (more than we do) what aspect of justice a fine is supposed to be for , particularly between restorative versus punitive. The first is what it costs to fix measurable damage-done, the second is what we need to ensure the person cares to change their behavior.

Restorative fines should include not only measurable damage but also compensation for damage that you can't easily measure or quantify, which is why these things get blurry a bit.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#700

Post by account42 » Wed, Mar 18, 2026, 11:55 AM UTC

cestith wrote: post #631

hunter2_ wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly why license points (leading to suspension) are better than fines. If the ticketing decision made by an automated camera system is deemed acceptable when issuing mere fines akin to parking tickets, but deemed unacceptable when issuing other penalties (which don't have this wealth inequity issue we are discussing now, at least not exclusively), that's effectively a poor tax.

This is exactly why in some countries traffic fines are proportional to income.

Which is still a poor tax unless the proportion increases with total income as the burden of an expense is relative to disposable income after necessities and not total income.