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Iran's Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is killed in Israeli strike, ending 36-year rule

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Re: Iran's Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is killed in Israeli strike, ending 36-year rule

#691

Post by dotancohen »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #658
dotancohen wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an English language book aimed for Westerner readers. It purports to argue that the core strategy for spreading Islam - terror - is not compatible with Western values. It also states that other features of Islam are incompatible with Western values, such as repression of women. The book argues that since these ideologies are incompatible with Western values, they must be abandoned. However, the abandonment argum…

You seem to be mixing up "Western values" and "Christian values" whereas Christian values are very much against the accumulation of wealth, whereas "Western values" seem to be all about worshipping wealth to the exclusion of all other considerations and even worshipping those who deliberately exploit others to amass an ungodly amount of wealth.

If you think that small difference means that Western values are not Christian values, then you have no idea how large the gulf between your values and Islamic values are.

Do you value separation of state and religious authority? Women's rights? Minority rights? Human dignity? Equality before the law? Sanctity of life? Individual moral responsibility? Monogamous marriage? The objective study of history? Fair trial? Witnesses at trial? Tolerance of alternative viewpoints?

Re: Iran's Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is killed in Israeli strike, ending 36-year rule

#692

Post by dotancohen »

simmerup wrote: post #683
sethev wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And gain experience

But dude was 86, how many people in nursing homes would you trust to run a country?

Probably one in a thousand.

But as one whom the Ayatollah has sworn to eliminate, I can still state that man was sharp and brilliant and extremely well spoken. His worldview was internally consistent. He had vision and experience and knew how to motivate people. He was a one in ten million leader.

I give him that praise and more, even recognising that his stated mission was to exterminate myself and my children.

Re: Iran's Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is killed in Israeli strike, ending 36-year rule

#693

Post by thomassmith65 »

ignoramous wrote: post #400
thomassmith65 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very moving! I can't say many international developments have filled me with optimism the past couple years. I want so badly for this to pan out for Iranians.

> want so badly for this to pan out for Iranians Badly? You seem a little obsessed. The few anti-regime Iranians (who live in Iran) I know do not want to get bombed into freedom & democracy. The Western hubris despite Iraq and Afghanistan is back in full force, I see.

I appreciate the time you took to reply to my comment, but life is too short to engage in this style of argument.

Re: Iran's Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is killed in Israeli strike, ending 36-year rule

#694

Post by golden-face »

baxtr wrote: post #311
1a527dd5 wrote: post #86

I wonder how old the rest of the commentators are. I watched the Shock and Awe campaign. I watched Saddam fall. I remember thinking this is great. Years later, I understand it was a complete folly. Removing Saddam in itself was good but what it did the wider region was not good.

I am old enough. Iraq is not perfect today but so much better than it was. Go talk to Iraqis and see for yourself. It costs us some time, money and lives to get to this point. But Saddam (a tyrant who killed his own kind in masses with gas and started wars with neighbors) staying in power would have been way worse for the wider region.

It's not guaranteed to be the same outcome in Iran, we're just rolling the dice again and hoping it is.

Re: Iran's Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is killed in Israeli strike, ending 36-year rule

#695

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

dotancohen wrote: post #691
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be mixing up "Western values" and "Christian values" whereas Christian values are very much against the accumulation of wealth, whereas "Western values" seem to be all about worshipping wealth to the exclusion of all other considerations and even worshipping those who deliberately exploit others to amass an ungodly amount of wealth.

If you think that small difference means that Western values are not Christian values, then you have no idea how large the gulf between your values and Islamic values are. Do you value separation of state and religious authority? Women's rights? Minority rights? Human dignity? Equality before the law? Sanctity of life? Individual moral responsibility? Monogamous marriage? The objective study of history? Fair trial? W…

Those values seem to be exactly the ones being discarded by the Christo-fascists of the USA.

My point is that the so-called Christian values are nothing to do with the reported teachings of Jesus and instead are used to justify the exact opposite.

Re: Iran's Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is killed in Israeli strike, ending 36-year rule

#696

Post by armenarmen »

dotancohen wrote: post #605
markus_zhang wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "good" part is that Sunni Muslims probably won't have the same feeling, or do they? But I agree with the assessment. I'd definitely avoid large public events. Darn the world is becoming more and more chaotic and we are just waiting for China to put up the last piece to make it into 19th Europe.

Sunni Muslims generally oppose Shias in Muslim-internal matters, and vice versa. But they both generally support the other in matters against non-Muslims.

Arab Bedouin proverb "I against my brother; I and my brother against my cousin; I and my brother and my cousin against the world”

Re: Iran's Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is killed in Israeli strike, ending 36-year rule

#697

Post by thomassmith65 »

breppp wrote: post #501
sph wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The son of a Shah that was deposed by mass protests by well-educated students and intellectuals during the Islamic Revolution, who are now in their 60s. Time is a circle.

sometimes you just have to try Islamism before you decide you don't like it

It's moot anyways since the fundamentalist side of the coalition purged the leftwing intellectuals shortly after the latter had served the purpose of toppling the Shah.

Re: Iran's Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is killed in Israeli strike, ending 36-year rule

#698

Post by dotancohen »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #695
dotancohen wrote: post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think that small difference means that Western values are not Christian values, then you have no idea how large the gulf between your values and Islamic values are. Do you value separation of state and religious authority? Women's rights? Minority rights? Human dignity? Equality before the law? Sanctity of life? Individual moral responsibility? Monogamous marriage? The objective study of history? Fair trial? W…

Those values seem to be exactly the ones being discarded by the Christo-fascists of the USA. My point is that the so-called Christian values are nothing to do with the reported teachings of Jesus and instead are used to justify the exact opposite.

I did not realize that the point of discussion had changed to specifically Christo-fascists of the USA. My point still stands in regard to the vast majority of Christians you will meet.

One thing that I can not stand about some modern fanatics is the representation of 1% of a population as if they represent the whole. Don't bring up Christo-fascists of the USA as representative of Christian values. That's highjacking the subject to your pet cause.

Re: Iran's Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is killed in Israeli strike, ending 36-year rule

#699

Post by pydry »

righthand wrote: post #638
baxtr wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am old enough. Iraq is not perfect today but so much better than it was. Go talk to Iraqis and see for yourself. It costs us some time, money and lives to get to this point. But Saddam (a tyrant who killed his own kind in masses with gas and started wars with neighbors) staying in power would have been way worse for the wider region.

And you frequently fly over to Iraq and explain that to the people there right? They nod in agreement with you. “We had to bomb and occupy your country and kill your citizens just like Saddam did remember? Now you’re better off after our failed occupation left your country. We’ll bomb you anytime; sure it costs us money is and the reason neither of our countries have healthcare but who needs healthcare when you have…

I went there and asked people about it. It was pretty clear they felt theyd gone through hell.

They were also complaining bitterly about things that got worse thanks to there being a war like corruption and a lack of jobs.

I have no idea who OP talked to nor why they thought the war was so great but it matched nothing of what I saw.

Re: Iran's Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is killed in Israeli strike, ending 36-year rule

#700

Post by woodruffw »

pydry wrote: post #685
hartator wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That 30k number came from the same source the WMDs did - paid informants who knew exactly what they were being paid to deliver. The Iran official number was still 3,117. It’s not that crazy to think the number is closer to 30k than to this.

Many of whom were cops. Trump and Israel are not backing nonviolent protestors in Iran. Theyre hell bent on provoking a civil war and are quite open about it. Plenty of video of evidence of protestor violence if you care to look. Meanwhile team genocide are trying to run a guilt trip on the rest of us Because we care less about a crackdown on protestors by another government than we do a fully fledged genocide aided…

Why would you feel guilty for the actions of Iran’s government? That doesn’t seem like the appropriate reaction, even if you’re directionally “pro” Iran because they’re directionally opposed to Israel.

(Ultranationalist/reactionary states like Iran and Israel love this kind of absolute framing, because it allows the state to ratchet, rather than de-escalate, cycles of violence.)

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