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Ladybird adopts Rust, with help from AI

ladybird.org

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Re: Ladybird adopts Rust, with help from AI

#691

Post by muyuu »

jibal wrote: post #530
muyuu wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the trust element to me is jumping into a port, not specific code although code you didn't write in a language you're not an expert with, will ALWAYS introduce an added risk of falling into pitfalls you can only avoid with experience, the more the merrier you're banking in the LLMs quite strongly when you do that, which may just work but i would be very worried about myself if i were in his boots

> code you didn't write He did write it. > you're banking in the LLMs quite strongly when you do that, which may just work but i would be very worried about myself if i were in his boots I too would worry if it were you doing it.

> He did write it.

he did not, the LLM did it

> I too would worry if it were you doing it.

i would not worry about anything you do, because it's obvious you would never get to that point

Re: Ladybird adopts Rust, with help from AI

#692

Post by troad »

pornel wrote: post #541
array_key_first wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition, C++ and Rust are very, very similar languages. Almost everything in C++ translates easily, including low level stuff and template shenanigans. There's only a few "oh shit there's no analog" things, like template specialization or virtual inheritance. Out of all the languages rust takes inspiration from, id rank C++ at the top of the list.

Strong disagree. Rust copied C++ syntax to avoid looking weird to C++ programmers, but the similarity is skin deep. C can be tamed, because it's mostly a subset of Rust, but C++ idioms are a death from papercuts. OOP, weakly-typed templates, and mutable aliasing create impedance mismatch in almost every C++ API. Rust doesn't have data inheritance, and what looks like interface inheritance is merely extra requirements…

As someone who's worked in both C++ and Rust, they're deeply similar languages. There are far more exotic languages out there. APL. Erlang. Forth.

In the grander scheme of things, Java and C# are literally the same language, Rust and C++ are twins, C is their dad, Forth is the owl staring through the dining room window, and Erlang is an alien spaceship passing over the house.

Re: Ladybird adopts Rust, with help from AI

#693

Post by staticassertion »

pjmlp wrote: post #667
staticassertion wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like maybe we're drifting here. You said this: > Well, I am on the provocative side that as AI tooling matures current programming languages will slowly become irrelevant. And I said I disagree because language directly impacts things like performance. And it does, massively. Like, order of magnitude differences are not hard to achieve simply by changing language. You are now saying that things just need to be…

> And I said I disagree because language directly impacts things like performance. And it does, massively. Like, order of magnitude differences are not hard to achieve simply by changing language. Only because you focus too much into the frontend, instead of the whole compiler infrastructure, with multiple frontends for the same compilation pipeline. > I still am not understanding the offshoaring conversation. Becaus…

The frontend to a language is critical to how that language performs. I don't see how you can consider this irrelevant.

Re: Ladybird adopts Rust, with help from AI

#694

Post by andsoitis »

> We will continue developing the engine in C++, and porting subsystems to Rust will be a sidetrack that runs for a long time.

So, even though they want the code base to be in Rust, they will continue writing new code in C++ and then translating it to Rust later to remove the C++ they just added.

There must be a really good reason for this, such as Rust doesn’t interop well with C++, otherwise this seems like a poor decision.

Re: Ladybird adopts Rust, with help from AI

#695

Post by [deleted] »

alabhyajindal wrote: post #289

From their post on Twitter in 2024 when they adopted Swift, with a comment on Rust. My general thoughts on Rust: - Excellent for short-lived programs that transform input A to output B - Clunky for long-lived programs that maintain large complex object graphs - Really impressive ecosystem - Toxic community https://xcancel.com/awesomekling/status/1822241531501162806

[deleted]

Re: Ladybird adopts Rust, with help from AI

#696

Post by GoblinSlayer »

adastra22 wrote: post #317
hypeatei wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just like, I suppose, C# Have you actually used .NET on Linux/macOS? I have (both at home and work) and there isn't anything that made me think it was neglected on those platforms. Everything just works™

It didn't use to be that way, for a very long time.

What didn't work and when?

Re: Ladybird adopts Rust, with help from AI

#697

Post by yreg »

andsoitis wrote: post #694

> We will continue developing the engine in C++, and porting subsystems to Rust will be a sidetrack that runs for a long time. So, even though they want the code base to be in Rust, they will continue writing new code in C++ and then translating it to Rust later to remove the C++ they just added. There must be a really good reason for this, such as Rust doesn’t interop well with C++, otherwise this seems like a poor…

Isn't the reason simply that they want to code in C++? This is a passion project.

Re: Ladybird adopts Rust, with help from AI

#698

Post by echelon »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #465
echelon wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust is the final language. Defect free. Immaculate types. Safe. Ergonomic. Beautiful to read. AI is going to be writing a lot of Rust. The final arguments of "rust is hard to write" are going to quiet down. This makes it even more accessible.

> Rust is the final language. > Defect free. I am an upstream developer on the Rust Project (lang, library, cargo, others), and obviously a big fan of Rust. This kind of advocacy doesn't help us, and in fact makes our jobs harder , because for some people this kind of advocacy is their main experience of people they assume are representative of Rust. Please take it down a notch. I think Rust is the best available lan…

I'm sorry my autistic elation for Rust is perceived as being over the top, but I truly do mean everything I say. I could have articulated it in a less saccharine tone.

> > Defect free.

There's a Google talk on the matter. "Defect rate" / "defect free" is a term that is used quite a bit. I've latched onto this, because I find it true. Rust is a far more defect free language on a line by line basis measured and compared to other statically typed languages.

> And I'd never call it "the final language"

I honestly disagree, and I'm sticking to this prediction.

I don't think we're going to be writing code much longer by ourselves. The machines are going to outpace us soon.

Maybe something that's LLM-oriented will take over, but at that point these won't be "human" languages anymore. So I'll revise my claim to "Rust is the last human language".

If I want to serialize my thoughts to code, Rust is the language for it. It's probably the last one I'll be hand-writing or sending my revisions back to the LLM for.

Rust will also be an order of magnitude easier to author, at which point there shouldn't be much holding people back from producing it. If you have a choice between generating Java, C++, Go, or Rust, you're going to pick Rust almost every time unless you have to fit into those other ecosystems.

If you haven't used Claude or Codex with Rust, it's sublime and you should drop what you're doing to try it.

Re: Ladybird adopts Rust, with help from AI

#699

Post by echelon »

josephg wrote: post #599
theLiminator wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually like rust more than Haskell, but `You can even have most of your code base be sans-IO, which is the exact same pattern you'd use in Haskell.` glosses over the fact that in Haskell it's enforced at compile time.

Another argument as to why rust isn't the forever-language. My forever language should include effects! Even rust has need of this. For example, I want a nopanic effect I can put on a function which makes it a compile error for anything that function calls to panic.

> Even rust has need of this. For example, I want a nopanic effect I can put on a function which makes it a compile error for anything that function calls to panic.

This!

This apart from build times is my biggest request for the language.

Nopanic, nomalloc, etc.

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