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Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

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Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#691

Post by fc417fc802 »

simondotau wrote: post #506
fc417fc802 wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that you're cherry picking a product category while I am taking "mobile app market" as a whole. I did not suggest that Apple could escape laws that apply to a given product category. Quite the opposite - that I think it is reasonable for a behemoth to be subject to _additional_ regulations that cut across _all_ product categories. That was the point of my analogy. In physical retail big box stores are…

I agree with stringent regulations with respect to apps other than interactive entertainment. I disagree about interactive entertainment because I don't think that moral arguments for marketplace regulation extends to video games. Especially when it comes to cross-platform games like Fortnite. Nobody is forced to make games for iOS. Epic Games were certainly not forced to do business with Apple any more than Bungie o…

Is this distinction you're drawing based on a categorical difference such as entertainment or art? Or is it related to the size of the vendor relative to some metric?

Given that the service operator gates access to the customers and that most customers are unlikely to switch just to do business with a particular vendor, then shouldn't policy be determined solely by the size of the service operator? Why should the type of good or size of the vendor enter into it?

In the west Apple is approximately half of mobile. That's massive. Saying a vendor isn't forced to do business with them is like saying that a vendor isn't forced to sell their products competitively. All things being equal if you publish software for mobile then you will be selling through Apple regardless of the terms they might impose.

Your remark about Bungie and Naughty Dog seems to me like saying that the local city doesn't need to tax a chain restaurant at the same rate as an independent one because it has storefronts in other cities with more favorable terms. The idea being that if they don't like the city's terms they can just close that storefront; it won't kill them due to their size and reach.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#692

Post by thewebguyd »

johnisgood wrote: post #219
thewebguyd wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Iirc, I used to have to pay $0.20 per SMS message, sent and received, before unlimited plans became a thing. Also had a limited amount of minutes for phone calls. I remember Verizon wireless at the time had a plan with unlimited nights and weekends for calls and texts, so my friends and I would message each other like crazy on the weekends when it was free. Got grounded when I got my first girlfriend in high sc…

You had to pay for receiving SMS?

Yeah, in the early days, at least in the US, carriers used to charge for both incoming and outgoing SMS unless you had a plan that included it, usually with a limited amount of messages and they were quite expensive for the time.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#693

Post by ajross »

cedws wrote: post #620

There's a kind of dissonance here that Patreon should be allowed to take a cut, being a platform on which creators can earn money - but Apple should not be allowed to take a cut, being a platform on which companies can operate their business.

The dissonance is conflating criticism of someone's fee structure with a demand that someone be disallowed from charging a fee. That's just dishonest spin.

No one thinks Apple shouldn't be allowed to make a buck. No one thinks Patreon shouldn't be allowed to make a buck.

But Patreon's fees are near-universally held to be reasonable and fair, and Apple's are some bullshit.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#694

Post by odo1242 »

mcintyre1994 wrote: post #552
wlesieutre wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I wouldn't be that shocked if Apple tried demanding a 30% royalty on bank deposits and bills paid using iPhone apps. They've decided the future of their company depends on being huge assholes about it.

I would be surprised by that because iPhone users would notice that. I think the App Store model relies on their fee being invisible to consumers, and the increased price you’re paying not being linked to them. AFAIK apps aren’t allowed to explain that they charge more if you subscribe on iPhone to users either, or why they do so.

Apps are allowed to link to web services to offer payment as an alternative to IAPs and offer a discount for doing so, thanks to Apple v Epic.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#695

Post by dzonga »

jacquesm wrote: post #423

The wealthiest company in the world really needs that last little bit from those Patreon creators who have it way too easy in their lives. It's not as if the people that take that meager bit of cash are going to invest it in Apple stock so they're going to have to pay up. The Mafia can learn a thing or two from Cook.

no wonder Tim Cook hangs around Trump a lot.

Both employ mafia tactics

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#696

Post by barnas2 »

silvestrov wrote: post #527
rob74 wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say that in the case of Patreon, any fee for Apple is unjustified. Apple can justify their fee on app purchases/subscriptions in the app store, but Patreon is not an app subscription, the money goes mostly from the patrons to the people they support. Ok, Patreon takes a cut to cover their operating costs, and also make a profit (not sure how profitable they are currently), but I really can't see how Apple, who do…

You could make the argument that Patreon isn't much more than a banking app. It just focuses on the receiver of the money than the sender. I think Apple is slowly killing apps with this policy. Everybody will slowly move to "web only" as 30% would kill their ability to compete with anybody else. This will likely be much stronger in countries where iPhones do not have the same market share as in the US.

> You could make the argument that Patreon isn't much more than a banking app.

Don't give them any ideas.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#697

Post by odo1242 »

MadameMinty wrote: post #642
rob74 wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say that in the case of Patreon, any fee for Apple is unjustified. Apple can justify their fee on app purchases/subscriptions in the app store, but Patreon is not an app subscription, the money goes mostly from the patrons to the people they support. Ok, Patreon takes a cut to cover their operating costs, and also make a profit (not sure how profitable they are currently), but I really can't see how Apple, who do…

Next up, 2% cut whenever you use any banking or payment app. Only 1.5% when you use Apple Pay!

They currently do charge 0.15% on Apple Pay actually.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#698

Post by fauigerzigerk »

gyulai wrote: post #508
Teever wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been thinking for a while now that a really effective way to deal with problem companies would be coordinate a mass action on small claims closets around the world all on the same day. Often in small claims court you win by default if the other person doesn’t show up and I’m sure judges know average will sympathize with the kinds of arguments that you raised above.

I don't know. We don't have any such thing as small claims court in Germany, but my expectation would be that judges in low-level courts will try their very best not to get noticed for setting any kind of precedent whatsoever. The only thing that's going to happen if you rule against Apple in a low-level court is that they will go into revision, and carrying a high probability that the higher-level judge will overtur…

>but my expectation would be that judges in low-level courts will try their very best not to get noticed for setting any kind of precedent whatsoever.

Is there even such a thing as precedent in the German legal system?

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#699

Post by odo1242 »

seemaze wrote: post #651
TheDong wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably you also would agree that it's fair if Chrome, Windows, and Lenovo all charged me 30% each for using Patreon via Chrome+Windows on a thinkpad, right? They're doing about as much to facilitate my use of Patreon as Apple is. This isn't like a mall at all. This is like a web browser, where apps are webpages, and Apple is insisting that the contents of that webpage are something they can dictate all payment te…

>What next, should apple take a 30% cut of my rent because I found my apartment on the Craigslist app? Should they take a 30% of my train ticket that I purchased using the Safari app? Sure they could, and usage of those products to purchase goods would nominally drop to 0%. People do not care about a lot of things, but they do care about losing money.

Apple would then force the with-IAP price to be the same as the without-IAP price so that they get a 30% cut of your rent regardless. You may be underestimating their willingness to tax all economic activity

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#700

Post by parineum »

nabla9 wrote: post #350
nabla9 wrote: post #327

Apple’s App Store profits on commissions from digital sales Revenue $32 B Operating Costs $7 B [1] Estimated Profit $25 B Operating Margin ~78% [1] R&D, security, hosting, human review, and including building and maintaining developer tools Xcode, APIs, and SDKs. Apple could take just 7% cut and still make 20% profits. Fun Fact: During the Epic trial, it was revealed that Apple's profit margins on the App Store were…

The operating cost is the maximum Apple can come up with when their accountants attribute everything they possibly can to digital sales for the sake of legal argument. R&D shouldn't really be included, and Apple uses those same tools and APIs themselves. I think the actual profit margin is closer to 90%, and Apple could maintain a 20% margin with just a 3–4% fee.

> ...for the sake of legal argument. R&D shouldn't really be included

That's an incredibly ridiculous take. R&D is an operating cost and it's an ongoing expense related to the app store existing.

> I think the actual profit margin is closer to ...

You can replace "think" there with "feel".

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